The ‘First Frame’ Long Roll

The ‘First Frame’ Long Roll

I was reading Mary Bergin’s tin whistle tutorial book and found the term "The ‘First Frame’ Long Roll " , but as far as I read, I couldn’t find how she define this ornamentation. Does anybody have an idea?

On pages 91 of the vol.2 she goes ;

"There are two types of roll:
1. The ‘Long Roll’
2. The ‘Short Roll’
In this lesson we will deal only with the long roll.
Within the long roll itself there are, to my mind, two distinct forms:
1. ‘First Frame’ Long Rolls
2. ‘Second Frame’ Long Rolls
The reason I refer to them in this way will become apparent later in the Tutorial.
The difference lies in where the emphasis is placed

For now, we will concentrate on ‘first frame’ long rolls. A thorough understanding of
these, and an ability to play them with ease in all of the following Reels, Jigs and
Hornpipes will greatly assist you in assimilating ‘second frame’ rolls and in differentiating
between the two. The ‘second frame’ long roll will be dealt with in Volume 3"

And then continue to explain about the long roll.

I assume what she calls "The first frame roll" refers to the long roll that starts at the first note of four in reel or hornpipe, and "The second frame roll" starts at the second note of four?

I have been waiting for her tutorial vol.3 that never published for 7 years!!

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Re: The ‘First Frame’ Long Roll

I don’t know, I’ve never heard those terms.

But yes of course a "long roll" (or simply "roll") as normally understood occupies three 8th-notes in a jig or reel.

If we have a G roll for example it’s three Gs

GGG

separated first by a cut then by a pat, which I’ll write like this

G’G,G

In a jig that occupies a full beat, so a bar of a 6/8 jig could be

| G’G,G B’B,B |

But a beat of a reel has four 8th-notes. Translate the bar of jig above to a bar of reel and it might be

| G’G,GA B’B,Bd |

or whatever. The feel and timing of this sort of long roll in a reel is quite different from when the roll is in effect pushed back one note like this

| DG’G,G dB’B,B |

It could be said that this sort of roll isn’t really a "long roll" per se, but a short roll ‘G,G or ‘B,B which happens to be preceded by the same note as the short roll.

For example instead of

DG’G,G

you could play

DE’G,G

and the "G short roll" would be timed the same in both cases.

Re: The ‘First Frame’ Long Roll

If you’re still in doubt you should just contact Mary Bergin directly (info@maryberginwhistle.com).

I had the pleasure of meeting her briefly at the Féile na Tána in February. My wife Helen took Mary’s workshop, loved her teaching and bought the book. The thing that struck me about her was how open she was to students contacting her directly to explain anything, something she repeated to Helen a number of times.

Re: The ‘First Frame’ Long Roll

~

Re: The ‘First Frame’ Long Roll

I don’t know that I would ever start a measure with a long roll; it’s too clunky and doesn’t flow. On a reel like Toss that Feathers, I would do a long roll on the second note. On jig like Merrily Kiss the Quaker, I would do the same. Both tunes get a nice lilt to the rhythm by so doing. None of this addresses what MB is on about. I get what Richard is saying, but that doesn’t address it either. If you contact Mary, please let us know what she said. I love her playing and perhaps she has developed something the rest of us mortals don’t do. I used to know an excellent whistle player named Paulette Gershon (Richard does, too) who studied with MB and sounds very like her. She’s the only whistle player I’ve ever heard who does.

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Re: The ‘First Frame’ Long Roll

I think i might have an answer for you. I went back to her recordings and I found that she primarily uses short rolls and crans. On the last part of The Langstern Pony (Which I know as Langstrom’s Pony), she actually starts the phrase with two crans one after the other - a very neat effect. A cran is much like a long roll, but each note gets equal duration and emphasis, which sounds like what she is talking about in the passage you quoted.

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Re: The ‘First Frame’ Long Roll

You might call it a long cran, since there are four notes, not three, the way she plays it.

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Re: The ‘First Frame’ Long Roll

What’s a “pat?”
I’m familiar with what the Cape Breton tradition terms a “warble.” (Playing a note and quickly going to the one beneath it and then back to the first note). What’s the equivalent of that in other traditions?
And what’s the definition of a “cran?” Heard it several times and didn’t know!

Re: The ‘First Frame’ Long Roll

You can do neither on fiddle. Both techniques are used on whistle, flute and pipes to play ornaments (grace notes).

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Re: The ‘First Frame’ Long Roll

Keep in mind that people playing different instruments tend to use different terminology for their ornamentation. A piper’s roll is not at all the same as a fiddler’s roll.

Re: The ‘First Frame’ Long Roll

Lolly a "pat" is a common ITM name for a lower gracenote.

On ITM flute/whistle some pats separating the same notes (instead of tonguing them) are
E:
xxx xxo
xxx xxx
xxx xxo
F#:
xxx xoo
xxx xxo
xxx xxo
G:
xxx ooo
xxx xoo
xxx ooo
etc.
Crans on the uilleann pipes generally are played on Bottom D and Low E using "cuts" (upper gracenotes) made by the upper-hand ring finger, the lower-hand index finger, and the lower-hand middle finger in a variety of sequences. (You can have several pipers with similar-sounding crans that are all doing them with a different gracenote sequence.)
Such as
x xxo xxxx A cut
x xxx xxxx
x xxx xoxx F cut
x xxx xxxx
x xxx oxxx G cut
x xxx xxxx
x xxo xxxx A cut
x xxx xxxx
which has an AFGA cut sequence on Bottom D. You could many other things using three or four cuts such as
AFGF
AFGFA
AGFG
AGFGA
Note that the FGA sequence is also used for that staccato triplet, the GF sequence is used for the GFE staccato triplet and for backstitching. The Piping Of Patsy Touhy describes how Touhy used that GF cut sequence in a number of different ornaments.

Re: The ‘First Frame’ Long Roll

I took a whistle class from Mary Bergin about 6y ago. Richard got it right in his first reply to the OP, but I would add one thing to support his observation that a "second frame roll" is better thought of as a short roll.

Mary emphasized that in a first frame roll (e.g. E3B), the beat falls on the first note. She suggested cutting the first note of the roll to emphasize the downbeat (‘E’E,E), which like corresponds to Ailin’s observation about hearing 4 notes in her playing.

Conversely, in a second frame roll (BE3) or (BE’E,E), the beat falls on the second note. She commented that it is easier to keep the pulse/accent on the offbeat if it is played as a short roll(BE E2) (BE ‘E,E), and doing so helps prevent speeding up and throwing of the underlying rhythm.

Hugh

Re: The ‘First Frame’ Long Roll

I’ve never heard the terms, "First Frame" and "Second frame" but, maybe they correspond to Richard Cook’s, comments about:

| G’G,GA B’B,Bd | vs | DG’G,G dB’B,B |

It is true that putting the roll at the front is very different rhythmically from putting it at the back.

I do notice that Mary Berlin has a strong tendency to use short rolls initiated with a tongue. It gives her playing a strong attack.