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What makes the piano sound good?


What makes the piano sound good?

As a pianist myself, I must say I have rarely enjoyed the piano in Irish music. 85% of the time it just sounds bad and outdated, especially the “boom - chick” pattern https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIfSsrgnJDo


But from time to time, I come across an exception and I wonder: “what makes it suddenly sound good?”

And I think I may have found part of the answer. I feel like when the pianist tries to imitate what a guitar or harp would do, it sounds so much better and consistent.

I think my favourite player at the moment is Jason Roach from Cape Breton band Còig.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mDLZ5xbpQE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w56CyhtQqkk


I also like Clayton Clemetson’ style, maybe because he has a more contemporary aproach.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqFKZYjSi0Q


Any recording suggestions/thoughts on the subject?

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

Interesting and honest post. I’m relatively new to Irish music and I have to agree with you in that I‘’m not a fan of the piano in this music. I have even avoided albums once I see there is piano on it. But I just watched the first link you posted by Coig and I have to say I really enjoyed that. The piano really sounded like it contributed and “fit” with the music. This is all very subjective and opinions are of course not right or wrong - but I have never been a fan of the “boom-chick” style of accompaniment. I don’t know about it’s tradition in the music. It’s just something that my particular ear doesn’t appreciate.
Thanks for the post. I will be checking out more music by Coig.

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

Listen to anything Charlie Lennon or Kevin Taylor is on. Loads of clips of Kevin on YouTube with The Thatch Ceili Band.

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Re: What makes the piano sound good?

Anybody know the name of the first tune in the Coig video? Heard it many times.

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

This site says “Jock Broon’s 70th” for the first tune on the Coig video (which matches the first tune on the last set on Coig’s album “Five”).

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

Yes that’s it, another crackin’ Gordon Duncan composition I believe. Quite similar to the most well known “Pressed For Time” actually.

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

I agree that there is a lot of boom-chick, but I think there are some exceptions, e.g. Ryan Molloy, Catherine McHugh (who I think plays on Theresa O’Grady’s Banjoista album) and Jack Talty.

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

I appreciate a range of piano styles depending on the context. This includes all the way from many Cape Breton players to a few Irish players. Including this accordion & piano. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3JbSmNcykQ

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Sitting in a sesh with a good piano player is fabulous, especially if it’s a real acoustic instrument.

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

Damien, when you say you’ve rarely enjoyed the piano in Irish music, are you including Cape Breton piano in there too?
Admittedly, I’ve not heard a whole lot of Irish piano music, but I’m really familiar with the CB “dialect” (and I dabble with it a bit myself…)
But at least in Cape Breton, a fiddler without a pianist is missing something huge…the piano is just a part of the Cape Breton sound.

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

Well I just discovered today what CB piano style was and I must say I enjoyed what I’ve seen so far! Seems CB piano is what I like then.

Btw, any ressources to learn to play in that style?

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

Thank you AB! I’ll probably make good use of this, it seems quite complete!
While I didn’t need any written ressource to learn how to play the wooden flute, I think I’d most likely need one for the piano as there is just too much happening at the same time to be able to learn it by ear.

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

“What makes a piano sound good?”. My guess it’s the Stool/Keyboard Interface.

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

It’s true, my piano has turned 101 years old this year and the ivory keys are falling out, it’s becoming harder to play on it now in a way. But it’s sound is amazing for folk music!

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Glad I’m not the only one! The Boom-chick backup tires very quickly.

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

Lessons online at sessions.kimberleyfraser.com
I take her fiddle lessons, and they are wonderful, I’ve also seen a sample piano lesson, and I learned a lot from it.

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

Samantha Harvey makes the piano sound good, I think; her album with Oisin MacDiarmada is excellent, titled “The Green Branch”.

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

To the OP -
I’m a fiddler, so take what I say with a grain of salt…

I like the Coig approach a lot, but I’m not crazy about the Clemetson tube because I feel like he’s leading (dominating?) the tune. Plus it’s a bit busy for me. Roach, on the other hand, leaves some white space for the melody.

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

“Samantha Harvey makes the piano sound good, I think; her album with Oisin MacDiarmada is excellent, titled ”The Green Branch"….

Yes.

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

Thanks for the clip of the Thatch Ceili Band. Anyone know what year it was recorded; mid 80s? I like it though it’s hardly the piano or percussion I’m listening to (they’re not there for their musical wizardry). It’s driving tunes with solid players. Of course I like the fluters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRr5C_LRtJ4


Back to the piano. It’s Kevin Taylor and he is in the odd position of, well you know, playing piano in a ceili band. It’s not all glamour. But you get to play with some excellent musicians.
Here’s another recording of his piano playing for anyone who isn’t yet tire from what they heard in the Thatch Ceili clip. Cheers!
https://ceolalainn.breqwas.net/download/Kevin%20Taylor/Kevin%20Taylor/07%20The%20Dogs%20Among%20the%20Bushes_The%20Fis.mp3

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Re: What makes the piano sound good?

The “boom-chick” pattern might be outdated but it’s worth remembering that the style developed for playing dance music.
I don’t deny that Jason Roach in Coig and Spragg Session is very good to listen to but I’m not sure what his style would be if he were playing for traditional dancing. I think it might be more traditional, perhaps in the Cape Breton style which is mainly a syncopated boom-chick with pretty much 1/4/5 chords on the right hand and chromatic bass runs on the left.

I think intelligent musical support makes a piano sound good, regardless of style.
The epitome of this in Shetland would be Violet Tulloch.

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

Ha, just beat me to it there, Donald! And I was also going to mention Muriel Johnstone, who accompanies Pete Clark, and Angus Lyon who plays with “Blazin’ Fiddles”.
I suppose the obvious answer is “the pianist”! But that is maybe over-simplifying it: if the pianist is not playing solo or the main melody player, then it is providing sympathetic accompaniment to those who are perhaps taking the lead on the tune: using all the tools in their armamentarium to complement the tune without overwhelming it. Boom-chick is certainly useful for playing for dancing, but there are so many more ways of accompanying a tune tastefully: as has been mentioned above, trying to emulate a harp or guitar, using arpeggios, bass runs, syncopation, but also keeping a lower profile than the main tune player.

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

Speaking of Cape Breton Island piano styles I did post a video in my most recent Discussion which featured 4 piano players from there. I don’t know how many of you caught it but I enjoyed it myself for all the music and dance (including the piano playing too). “Back in 2017, in the musical Beaton household in the heart of Mabou, family and friends gathered for an afternoon of tunes and dancing during the week of KitchenFest!”

Appreciate your perspective, DonaldK. ;

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Re: What makes the piano sound good?

As a fiddle enthusiast I prefer no piano at all in ITM fiddling. That said, I enjoy a vast range of good recordings with any instruments, and can only agree with Donald K that “intelligent musical support makes a piano sound good, regardless of style”. That said, I find Cape Breton piano accompaniment far more fitting and even exiting to the music. In my opinion that piano playing sits easier with Cape Breton Music than with ITM. I wish I knew a pianist who could properly back my Irish fiddling like that.

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I typically like the piano accompaniments on recordings, although sometimes with Scottish country dancing I think it can sound a bit harsh.

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

I’m not a big fan of the older recordings that all had piano backing. Not sure if it’s true but I heard often times the recording studio had a pianist on contract and pretty much the only way someone would be able to record would be if they played with the pianist who often was just a good pianist and not really a specialist in Irish music.

Anyway, here’s one of my favorite trad piano recordings, from a member on this site: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAII4UzQ-b4

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

sean mac, yeah that’s probably why the backing on too many of the Michael Coleman recordings is so god awful - though you might think a ‘good pianist’ would be able to hear harm harmonic changes instead of just hammering away at the same 2 chords through the entire tune. Nice to hear Jerone again.

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

I love that video of Jerone!

I’m not a huge fan of the ‘boom-chick’ piano when I’m listening to Irish music either, but man, does it ever cradle you when you’re the one playing the tune!

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

Except for the first video there wasn‘t much irish music in OP‘s post, but rather from Cape Breton or Shetland.

I too can‘t stand the oompa oompa accompaniment.

Well, one cannot talk about piano in irish music without mentioning Brian McGrath! I love his style.
https://youtu.be/-4Boxg-jwkg


Also Saileog Ní‘Cheannabháin deserves a mention. She plays the also the melody on the piano, something rather rare in ITM. And she plays fiddle and is a very good Sean-Nós singer as well.

https://youtu.be/7uQZoYMZtZg



And the afore mentioned Catherine McHugh does also always a first class job on the piano.

https://youtu.be/iQ-1xVU9JKs

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

Damien, your reference to Clayton Clemetson reminds me of the collaboration between Paul Machlis and Alasdair Fraser. Thank you. In particular, the album The Road North. Whilst this album is largely Scottish tunes, Paul’s piano playing has space and is lyrical, a perfect balance to Alasdair’s fiddle playing.

https://youtu.be/G9u-YWf8xKU

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

Jerone is such a good musician. He may be best on piano. Although he is wonderful @ everything he puts his mind to. A lot of love too in all his music. Jerone, take care & don’t you dare ever stop music. It would break
my heart in one thousand pieces. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTP2ESbGaug

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I too was happy to see Jerone’s piano playing given its due credit in its relevance to this topic. Believe it or not, that first video of his ‘big reels’ on piano, is the only video I keep on my phone. His Bucks or Oranmore is just a brilliant and inspiring piece of piano.

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

I likes Andy Thorburn’s piano work on Ian Hardie’s album The Spider’s Web.

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

One problem which I have encountered when playing piano at sessions is when all of the melody players have a slightly different conception of the timing and the rhythm and the beat. Each melody player is playing a fraction of a second differently from everyone else. In a situation like this, a so-called “boom-chick” or “oompa-oompa” type of accompaniment can be useful for holding and/or keeping the group together. I don’t always use this type of accompaniment pattern but sometimes I don’t have much choice.
When I play my acoustic string bass with a local old time folk music group, sometimes I must deal with a similar problem, i.e., melody players who are a fraction of a second either behind or ahead of the other musicians.
I play piano at the local Irish Sessions because I was specifically invited to do so by the other musicians.

Laurence

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

I very much understand what you are saying, Laurence. Better not say too much more for fear of offending someone, but the recent scenario of playing in Zoom sessions with different players taking turns to lead, playing solo, really does sort out those who CAN hold regular and suitable timing (a good proportion) from those who just can’t (a tricky minority). Long notes drastically shortened, rests omitted, runs of quavers rushed, or just playing far, far too fast and accelerating all the time, when they haven’t got us piano players to hold them in check!! Really hard to play along with them…..sorry!

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

Trish, it’s the Mustard. You can always offend someone regardless of “how much” one has to say. Say away, I say!

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Re: What makes the piano sound good?

Have a listen to Alan Connor on piano with Sharon Shannon.
A terrific contrasting style, great to listen to the colours he paints behind her music.
But can be a bit of putting on stage as his performance steals the light from Sharon at times.

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

Played with Coig at Orkney Festival last year. Lucky enough to see them up close and they blew me away! I haven’t enjoyed a band as much for years, and Jason is a beast on the old Joanna. Darned if I know what he was doing that was so good, but the absence of horrible ooomp-ta, ooomp-ta vamping was a definite plus.
m.d.

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

Yes, Alan Connor is very good, but his gyrations do somewhat remind me of Animal in The Muppets! (Albeit different instruments!)

I discovered fairly early on in lockdown what makes piano sound bad, and that’s playing it through the Facebook Live platform: maybe down to my computer’s limitations, but it wax pretty bad: no sustain on any long notes, despite my having been using the sus pedal. On the same system, voice was Ok, as was accordion, guitar pretty mediocre, piano diabolical.
I decided that if I wanted to put stuff online, it was better to record into a decent camera or digital recorder, then convert to YouTube or Soundcloud respectively

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

The discussion has been drifting between styles, as people have alluded to there is a Cape Breton style that’s been around for many years that’s quite different from the “old school” Irish style.

The OP might want to focus listening to Cape Breton pianists for a time to get a deeper feel for that style.

One aspect of the Cape Breton pianists is that they’re not simply accompanists, they know all the tunes, and will play melody from time to time, when the mood strikes.

Unrelated to either Cape Breton or Irish piano styles are people like Paul Machlis, longtime accompanist to Scottish fiddler Alasdair Fraser. Paul has stated “my role isn’t to provide rhythm- this music has enough rhythm already.” So you will hear the opposite of the Boom-Chick approach with him.

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

Here’s Paul Machlis. Jump to 3:03

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G05PNMsvF4


It brings back such memories, hearing Alasdair! I have heard him in concert many times, and danced all night to his playing (he used to play for Scottish dances- don’t know if he still does). There’s simply nothing like dancing to a player like that.

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

Now for the Cape Breton style piano, my personal favourite is Barbara MacDonald Magone.

Here she is, also accompanying Alasdair Fraser, one of those epic sets, incredibly fun to dance to, starting with an air or march, going into strathspeys, and ending with a string of wild reels.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfET4sxtQvo&t=232s

Re: What makes the piano sound good?

Thank you Richard, I like that idea of the piano not having the role of giving the rythm. That’s what I meant by ‘the piano imitating the the harp’ I think. Something between backing/melodic/relief.

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(And the fiddling fella can play a bit too!)