Advice on buying a 6-key wooden flute

Hi all,

I attended my first session last Wednesday and that was a fantastic experience. I was there with my (beloved) delrin Forbes flute and was lucky enough to hear a Geert Lejeune and a Sam Murray wooden flute from two other players. I fell very much in love with the tone of the Sam Murray’s flute (I am aware that 95% of the tone comes from the player, but I believe there was something special in the flute as well).

Brief, I am planning to buy e 6-key high-quality blackwood flute and would have gone for the Sam Murray but, as far as I understand, the flutemaker is not making flutes anymore.

Here comes the point of this post:

1) Could you point to me to something similar to Sam Murray’s flutes?

2) In my search for a wooden flutes over these last few days, I was attracted by two flutemakers: Gilles Lehart (good reputation, great tone on recordings and, above all, short waiting list) and Solen Lesouef (to what I can hear, the tone that attracts me most). Do you have experience with these two flutes?

3) Any suggestions of other flutemakers?

I am seeking advice especially from experienced players who have played several different flutes. Please feel free to PM me if you’d prefer keeping private your comments on the flutes.

(also posted on C&F)

Thank you very much for your help
Sergio

I play a keyless Geert Lejeune Pratten flute and have already ordered keys for it, because I am so happy with it. It is a flute with loooots of volume and a big tone, but therefore needs quit a bit air and is not the most easy one to play in terms of embouchure and tone hole size.
Another really really good flute maker whose flutes I have heard in session (and could try them out) a few times is Glenn Watson (http://watsonflutes.com/contact.html).
What I found especially remarkable is that his flutes are very light and slim and therefore easy to handle. He somehow seems to be able to build them with really small walls?

Another very good (still not so well known) flute maker is Steffen Gabriel from Germany. I heard his flutes at sessions quite often and tried out a few. I think they not only sound really well (can be played loud, strong lower notes…that at least the traits they I am usually looking for ;) ), I think they are also a lot easier to play than many other flutes (https://www.gabrielflutes.com). For a good player it is probably achievable to sound similar to a flute player who played a really different flutes - but it certainly is a lot easier to sound like “your idol” with a similar instrument.

I think you shouldn’t think too much about which flute sounded well at a particular session, because as you already mentioned, the player is the biggest factor! A factor to consider might eventually be, what kind of flutes you favourite players tend to play or if there is at least some trend. Kevin Crawford produces a really clear sound and tends to play flutes with a smaller bore and tone holes - Matt Molloy has a rougher more ready sound and has played flutes with a big bore and tone holes for the last 40 years or so.

Not to point to another source but, Chiff & Fipple has a dedicated forum to flutes and there is a link with TOO much info that might help you out a bit. (sorry if this is prohibited)
Please note- what davidread posted should read..“Matt Molloy has a rougher more REEDY sound..”
I’m concerned being new to flutes you might not pick that up.
http://forums.chiffandfipple.com/viewforum.php?f=2

You’ll almost never hear anyone say a bad word about Gilles Lehart’s flutes. and you can get a 6 keyed one for less than 2000 Euro. I can really only speak to Eamonn Cotter and Patrick/Aaron Olwell flutes from experience, and I would suggest you buy a Lehart if you can afford one. The get on the Olwell waiting list and when it’s ready you can always sell the Lehart to help pay for it.
m.d.

My only comments would be (and they’re oft-said and obvious, I suppose)

1) The only way to know if a flute suits you is to play it. Listening to others play it won’t tell you how that flute will play for you.

2) Playing Flute A from a maker doesn’t tell you how Flute B and Flute C from the same maker will play. Approach each flute as a one-off, and play a flute before you buy it.

Thanks everyone for all comments and suggestions. Richard, I hope the time will come soon when will be allowed to put my lips on someone else’s flute!

Give serious consideration to out Terry McGee here in Australia, a superb maker of more than forty years experience. In a recent post he mentioned he has commissioned a bulk lot of sterling silver keys, from which I deduce he is back into keyed flute production and under full swing, after out terrible bushfires. Terry makes the Gary Larsen preferred flute, so that’s also a good recommendation.

All the best from Down Under!

Good point Sergio, my mind was still back in the pre-Covid days.

It was funny about fluteplayers, you could see 3 or 4 of them talking, and even 100 yards away you knew what was going on. First they would be chatting with flutes in hand, soon enough they would be showing their flutes to each other, followed by the flutes being passed around the circle, getting tested by everyone.

You knew it was really getting serious when the headjoints started coming off! The sticking of a finger in the top of the midsection to get an idea of the bore size, and lastly all the headjoints being swapped on the various flute-bodies and all these combinations being tested. Invariably there would be one magic combination that everybody would love.

Thanks Andrew, I will have a look at that. Richard, I can imagine that! Unfortunately, if I want to get a flute in a reasonable time, I’m afraid I will have to put me on a list simply based recordings and recommendations.

Not for everyone I am sure, but I learned about flutes that suited me by buying second hand. They are cheaper, available immediately, and they retain their value. This solves the problem of getting a flute quickly, and it gives you the chance to find what suits you.

The counter argument is that if you buy any decent flute and stick with it, you will likely be better off in the long run.

If I could have one flute by a modern maker, it would be Glenn Watson. It shares with the Murray being light, the tuning is exceptional, it has a large bore and medium large tone holes, and has characteristics of both Rudalls and Prattens.

There’s a long list of good makers… but the typical waiting time for a NEW keyed flute has kinda grown over the past 2 years from 12 months to now more typically nearing 3 years. So factor that into the mix.

Given your enthusiasm, and where you are at on the cycle… I’d suggest getting a nice modern keyless wooden flute (new or second hand) while you are developing your embouchure, technique etc. You probably need a year or two to get a better idea of what your style of playing will prefer and in the meantime you have a relatively inexpensive high quality instrument that won’t hold you back in learning. Expect to pay €700-1000 for a nice example. You’ll be a better informed and educated buyer in 12 months time.

Hi Hugh and gbyrne, thank you for your comments.

gbyrne, that sounds reasonable, and surely I’ll be a better informed and educated buyer in 12 months time. On the other side, I have two Delrin models (an R&R-like by Vincenzo di Mauro and a Pratten-like by Rob Forbes) with which I am practising technique and tone production and would like to get used to keys as soon as possible (this in any case means in no less than half a year - much likely a couple of years -, given the current waiting times for a good keyed flute).

Sergio, I have a Forbes as my travel flute. If you like the Forbes, you would find it very easy to transfer to a Watson, but the Watson is a bit more agile.

Do you have a preference for the di Mauro or Forbes?

Hugh

Hi Hugh, this is a tough question for a player with no more than 1 year of experience. I like them both but my tone (on both flutes) has been continuously changing and I keep discovering new tone features in both flutes. It is easier for me to slide into the notes with the large holes of the Forbes (my Di Mauro is a medium-holed one), however the Forbes is definitely more demanding in terms of air. In the end, I’m very happy with both and try to gain familiarity with both a Pratten-like and R&R-like flute.

Hugh makes an important point, and I myself nearly always acquire my instruments used.

Yes no waiting period!

He mentions that used instruments retain value. There’s no difference in value/price between a 5 year old flute and a 6 year old flute. What that means is that you can, in effect, rent an instrument free of charge. You can buy a used flute and play it for a month, or a year, give it a nice long trial, and if it doesn’t suit you can sell it for the same price you bought it for.

When I decided to get into playing Low D whistle I picked up used ones from every maker I could get my hands on. At any given time I would have a few of them. They got extensively played and compared against each other. Over the span of several years I went through around 40 of them. Now I have one, and the total price I paid for all that trying and testing was the price of one.

Yes sometimes one would sell for a bit less than I bought it for. But the next one would sell for a bit more, and in the end things even out.

Of course the price of a professional-level used Low D whistle is $200-300, and keyed flutes are ten times that! But you will get your money back unless you overpay. To play this game you have to only buy instruments that are being sold for the going rate.

That sounds interesting. I must confess that I am not really confident with this. This might be slightly off-topic, but how does that work: first moves the money, then the instrument? What happens if the instrument gets damaged or lost during the expedition? Can you get bad suprises (e.g. item not matching its description)?

For damage/loss make sure the shipment is fully insured.

As far as items not matching the description, best to deal with the original maker or if possible someone who you can at least verify is a real person from this site or other sources who can vouch for him/her.

If shipping from overseas, be aware that sometimes shipments get stuck in customs for months for no fault of the shipper, I’ve had packages go “missing” only to turn up 6 months later. For this reason, I’ve pretty much given up on shipping outside of the USA where I live.

Agree with Michael and Richard. Money first, flute sent second. I don’t buy from anyone who posts only to sell instruments, or someone whose first post is to sell an instrument. Ask for new photographs of specific things just in case they have grabbed photos off the internet. I have played flutes I am selling over the phone to prospective buyers who want to check that I have a flute, or to check its tuning. You can tell a lot about the seller (or buyer) from their emails….

Customs can be a pain. The good news about insurance is that in the event of loss, you aren’t out your money. The bad news is that if your country charges duty on musical instruments, you end up paying more duty.

That said, I have never had a problem and I have bought flutes from the USA, Australia, the UK, France, Belgium, and Germany.

Hugh

As others have said, there are a lot of great playing un-keyed flutes at really reasonable prices in wood and Delrin. After you’re seasoned on one of them, and by that I mean play well, at tempo, with good tone and lift, you can start to ask yourself what you truly want from an instrument. There’s a lot to be learned from half-holing and cross fingering. A couple of great players have reminded me that keys don’t make a player better, maybe a bit broader, but not better. I’ve gone to many sessions and never touched a key. Some flute, whistle, pipe players have gotten annoyed with me for starting tunes with accidentals in them. Don’t get me wrong, I love my keys. But I only use them about 20% of the time unless I’m playing alone or with a backer.

Oh and I think Tony Millyard has some un-keyed Rudalls in stock. You could do much worse.

https://mcneelamusic.com/wind/flutes/sam-murray-flute/

Here is the contact information.
Email: info@mcneelamusic.com
Call: (353)-1-8322432

I don’t know if they are still receiving flutes from Sam Murray much less how long it takes to get one.
It’s a lead though if you’re interested in one of his new, keyless flutes.
All the best

Thanks Michael, Hugh, Ross and AB for the tips. Ross, mentioning my first session experience at the beginning of my post was probably misleading (I did that because that gave me the occasion to get in touch with a keyed wooden flute). Though I am really Irish-focused right now, this is not the only music that I’ve been interested in and playing (mainly on the guitar) over the past 15 years or so. I started playing the flute nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita (Dante, Inf. I.1: half way through the journey of our life - age of 35, last year) - not that early! Now I feel I need a keyed flute - which will in any case take at least 6-12 months - for a number of reasons among which exploring the instrument in non Irish music and getting familiar with the keywork early on (I have a very personal learning strategy, I admit, also outside music). At any rate, thank you all so much for all your help!

Sergio --
I haven’t heard that Sam Murray is no longer building flutes. I got one a few months ago from McNeela in Dublin , they carry his orders last I checked, so you could place the order with them, and then wait in the queue until it ships. Worth the wait, IMHO, though there are other great flute makers out there, Skip Healy, I play one of his, there’s also the above-mentioned McGee, haven’t played a Forbes but hear good things, Olwell of course, if you can find one. There are others. You seem to be on the right track. A good flute makes a huge difference to anyone who already understands the simple basics of how to play. A lesser flute even in the hands of a better player is still a handicap, so by all means you are right to invest in good gear.

I recently bought a Sam Murray 6 key flute
And I can assure you he is still making them only through orders from McNeela instruments in Dublin
This flute certainly needs playing in like any new flute and I would think it could be a nice flute indeed.
It is probably close to the Pratten style and should produce a good sound.
A nice flute to hold as it is lighter than most
I have yet to get the best out of it
I also have a Pratten style 6 key Olwell and another Olwell probably described as a Nickelson medium hole flute
The Olwell Pratten has a great sound and the nickelson is the one I play most as it also has a great sound and very forgiving but not quite as loud as the Pratten
I would consider that Patrick Olwell makes one of the best flutes in the world however they are pricy from €6k-€10k and the waiting time list is several years
The Sam Murry you could get in about 6-8 weeks and costs about €2600
Remember a flute that sounds wonderful in the hands of one player may not suite another and visa versa
The sound or voice from a new flute will take some time to mature
So I would think the Sam Murray is good value readily available (kind of) and the Olwells come up now and again for sale as secondhand but closer to the €10k mark.
Hope this is helpful

Thanks pgm3 and Robin G for you advice!

You guys are giving me flute envy! I’m very happy with my keyless Patrick Olwell and old wooden Haynes if I want access to more notes. Love both these instruments. Someday I’d love to try more, get an Irish one with a few keys. Do you think its best to wait until I get to Ireland? I think I’m on Patrick’s list too.

Hi jami P
You are a lucky man to be on the Olwell list.
Patrick’s son is making flutes with Patrick and will probably be the main man sometime
If you could get a cheap 6 key it would help you get used to the keys and then be ready when u get your Olwell.
Best of luck