For the fiddlers out there – Help

I am learning the hornpipe “An Comhra Doon (https://thesession.org/tunes/1636) and I am having difficulty with the fingering of the fourth Bar of part B ( |Efgf e2fg| ). Specifically, getting from first finger on the “ E” (D string), to first finger on the “f” ( E string)
Is there an easy way of doing this. I have tried just repositioning the finger but, gosh! you have to be quick. I have also tried rolling my finger on to the E string but this seem to be a little bit of a hit and miss. I have even considered playing alternate notes but this Bar is a lovely feature of the tune and is, in my view, required.
Any suggestions please.

I’m not familiar with the tune, but perhaps using your second finger for the F on the E string? Seems doable, especially if it’s an F#.

I have come across a polka, although the name escapes me now, that requires fingering “out of the box”, namely using 3 for a C# on the A. My teacher showed me what to do, otherwise I’d have never really considered doing it. Very awkward at first, but quickly got used to it.

Yes you’d need to be quick about it. If you can’t manage it cleanly, play the E assertively and just replace the first f# with a rest (silence). The tune won’t suffer.

Do it like this fellow does:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyo8K-Q1IwA

play video

Thanks’ everybody for the suggestions. I will give them all a try. I like the way your man plays it in the video, so I will be having a good look at how he does it.

Again thanks to you all.

🙂

Stiamh: “… just replace the first f# with a rest …”

That is what I would do - it is how I hear the tune in my head, anyway. Whilst a technical solution to the problem of jumping from low E to high F# would be a useful thing, dropping a note from the tune is perfectly legitimate (and in this case, I feel, enhances the tune by making it a tad less busy and giving it a more defined shape). It is better to play a slightly simpler version of a tune well, than stumble over a more complicated version.

The same technical issue applies, of course, to any instrument using fiddle tuning, and players of keyboard instruments (piano accordion, piano) might perhaps encounter a similar problem - so you are probably in good company. On a wind instrument, it is no particular obstacle - I don’t know about concertina or button accordion. But there is no incompatibility issue between the two versions anyway.

I’d probably keep the first finger down across the strings for both the low E and the high F#, but there are various ways of making small changes to the tune to accommodate the shift, as noted above. Miss out a note, or use a non-standard finger. Or you could play a G instead of the E at the start of bar 4. Or maybe replace the low D-F# in bar 3 with a triplet arpeggio (D-F#-A) and play a B or high D instead of the low E. Perhaps best to try a few things and see what feels fluent and sounds right to you.

//Stiamh: “… just replace the first f# with a rest …”//

I agree, a good alternative.

… or, just play an open E instead of the first F#. or ..
… or, sound the B on the way up to the open E { (3EBe gf e2fg } … that way, there’s no need to lift the bow.

If you must play the bar as written, then 2nd finger on the f# is do-able (and [classically] it’s standard fingering for a chromatic scale, so nothing too unusual).

Looking through the tune comments [ (https://thesession.org/tunes/1636 ] I see someone referenced this tune on Sean Keane’s 50 Fiddle Solos [cassette and book].

He plays the open E instead of the f#.

The question is a good illustration of the pitfalls of following a transcription to the letter when you haven’t sufficient experience of the music to judge when you can safely deviate. The troublesome f# is in an unaccented position and although it might be a nice touch if you can phrase it satisfactorily on your instrument, it is not very important. Besides omitting it, you could replace it with several other notes - B, e, and perhaps nicer than any, occasionally an a (on the e string).

I think the suggestion to play the f# with the second finger is borderline absurd. No, not borderline - just absurd. 🙂 It’s actually much easier to be quick about it and play the note with the first finger. No technical difficulty. But if you can’t get your finger across to the e string in the time it takes to get your bow across to the e string, do something else until your technique improves.

//I think the suggestion to play the f# with the second finger is borderline absurd. No, not borderline - just absurd.//

Stiamh, can you explain why you think it is absurd? I’m only curious, as it’s more ergonomic than lifting the 1st finger to hop over the A string to play the f#.

Have you tried playing the entire phrase both ways, Jim? I have. Using the second finger might seem more ergonomic in theory but in practice it’s very awkward. Plus it just gives you another problem - that of deciding which finger to use for the g. Sliding with the second? Yuk. Playing the g with the third finger? Give me a break!

Barré?

You have four fingers, why does one have to do all the work? But I’m no fiddler, what do I know.

As a flute/low whistle player I almost certainly wouldn’t play the bit in question as written:

FADF|Efgf e2

but rather use a Closed Middle D as a stepping-stone between the octaves:

FADF|Edgf e2

which is something I do quite a bit. That brief touch on that somewhat percussive Closed Middle D pops you nicely up into the 2nd octave, and gives the phrase a bit of syncopation as well.

I stick with the first finger for both notes. If it seems tricky at first, you can practice your way into it. (If it’s still scrappy after that, are you playing the tune too fast…?)

It’s a big jump to get your fingers round. I’ve just tried the phrase on the mandolin and I instinctively play the high F# with my second finger (and the folowing G with my third). This seems the quickest and most natural way to do it. I thought basic fingering on the two instruments would be similar enough to make that the solution for both, but Stiamh describes it as both ‘awkward’ and ‘absurd’! If anyone can be bothered, I’d really like to know why! 🙂

Instead of Ef#gf#, try Egf#g.
It doesn’t sound too different and being able to place the second finger on the g before you’ve even finished with the E does make it a lot easier.

Play the E staccato and practice getting it on the F# slowly and it’ll work just fine, surely? Or play the second part in 3rd position.

Nothing wrong with using fingers as required, in general. https://thesession.org/tunes/13505 for example is a heck of a lot easier on a fiddle player if they use first finger for the C natural, and 4th for the D#, and the intro to the second part played 1234.

//Barré?//

Will, I think in this context it means means rolling the 1st finger over to play the f#, where the string is contacted by the side of the finger, rather that by the tip.

//Have you tried playing the entire phrase both ways, Jim? I have. Using the second finger might seem more ergonomic in theory but in practice it’s very awkward. Plus it just gives you another problem - that of deciding which finger to use for the g. Sliding with the second? Yuk. Playing the g with the third finger? Give me a break!//

@Stiamh - yes, I have tried it both ways. I think the reason for the disagreement here is to do with our background and experience on the instrument itself, independent of the music we play on it.

I started out as a self-taught fiddler many years ago, then I had some classical tuition from a really good teacher. It was a real eye-opener for me, not least playing all those notes “in between”, to put it simply. In the course of the lessons, I learned many varied fingering techniques, and in the course of that, how to play with economy of motion - so, no awkward hops or jumps to adjacent strings if possible.

So, when I see this type of question that asks “how do I play the f#?”, then it’s simple - you have a finger doing nothing (2nd finger), so use that to play the f#. For me there’s no difficulty whatsover, but that’s only because of my previous training. Using the 3rd finger on the G is fine also - that would be standard practice is a chromatic scale. Again, if you’re not familiar with classical fingering patterns and chromatic scales, then I can understand why you’d choose to “hop” with the 1st finger from low E, over the A string to high F#.

All the above is about what to do if you simply **had** to play the notes as written.

After all that, I’d opt for any for the other suggestions that don’t include playing the f#.

If I had to play it as written, rolling the 1st finger across works fine for me. I find using the 2nd finger for the F# very difficult to do without losing my intonation.

Another example of using a free finger would be here : https://thesession.org/tunes/1515 (1st setting), bar #7, where the note in question is the C#.

In the Dmaj scale the 2nd finger normally plays the note G on the E string, and it also plays the note C# on the 2nd string. However, if you used that fingering in bar #7, you’d have hop across strings, so instead, you could use the (free) 3rd finger to play the C#.

The original discussion on this is https://thesession.org/discussions/21079

Don’t forget that a lot of sheet music isn’t written for fiddle so sometimes you have to make adjustments to suit your instrument. This arrangement modifies L2, Bar 3 to make Bar 4 more easily achievable:

http://www.folktunefinder.com/tunes/13517

As far as I can see, everyone above is accepting that the transcription of “An Comhra Donn” posted here is “correct”, or the only way to play it. I don’t believe it is. I learned “An Comhra Donn” from The Chieftains 2 nearly 50 years ago. It’s not a tune I’ve heard played much recently, but I have never played the note sequence posted here as “|Efgf e2fg|” in the 4th bar of the second part. I think that transcription is wrong, but I would have to hunt out “Chieftains 2” to check.
You ask “is there an easy way of doing this ?”. I have always played that phrase as “EFGF E2 fg”. That may look like the same, but if you play a single first “E” in “E2” [ where as a flute player I might sacrifice a note to take a breath ] the “dropped” “E” gives you time to jump up to the top string. That certainly works for me. An octave plus jump from “E” to “f#” is very unusual in traditional Irish music, and I believe, a mistake in the transcription here.

//An octave plus jump from “E” to “f#” is very unusual in traditional Irish music, and I believe, a mistake in the transcription here.//

It doesn’t sound right, does it?

Just for fun, listen to how this fellow handles the F# to G jump in the B part:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRVt_E_KaqE

play video

It’s Chieftains 1. Which offers numerous options in three times through. To my ear the important effect is that it takes a leap somehow from the low D at the end of one phrase to the bit with the high g in the next one.

noelnorton -
Two things about the Tommy People’s recording above.
- He puts a slight pause in between the lower F# and higher G notes. Not a pause in the rhythm, but in the sound of the notes themselves.

- What you can’t see, and what I don’t think anyone here has mentioned, is that doing this smoothly requires excellent bow control, since the bow must be quickly rebalanced going from the D string up to the E string.

Practice it slowly and you’ll get it.

“//An octave plus jump from ”E“ to ”f#" is very unusual in traditional Irish music, and I believe, a mistake in the transcription here.//

It doesn’t sound right, does it?"

It doesn’t sound *wrong* to me, just a bit overcomplicated for most players. I can imagine it played that way by someone that naturally plays in a particularly ‘notey’ style (Dermot Byrne and Noel Hill spring to mind), but it strikes me more as a personal elaboration than the essence of the tune.

No, that’s right, low E to 2nd octave F# for sure.

Well thanks everyone for your contribution. It’s nice to know that I am not the only one who found this a little difficult, if not interesting
I have managed to make it work by rolling the finger across to the f#. At the minute I sometimes miss the “f#” and end up just playing the “g” ( a combination of a slow bow and a slow finger) but the sequence seems to sound ok.
As someone suggested above more practice will see it improve.

Again, thanks everyone for your input.

Bígí go maith agus fan slán

“No, that’s right, low E to 2nd octave F# for sure”.
It’s not “right” - it’s one way of playing it.
Anyway, glad that the OP has got something from the discussion.

@Kenny: I have had a listen to the recording from Chieftains 2. In keeping with the Chieftains’ style, every player has their own slightly different take on it but I can confirm that at least one of the players (Seán Potts on whistle?) *sometimes* plays the phrase in question as in the transcription. So it is not an *error* in the transcription, but perhaps a lack of judicious rationalisation on the part of the transcriber.

One solution might be to transpose it down into C major, so that the string crossing becomes D to e on the open strings. I haven’t got a fiddle with me to try it out, but playing it through in my head I think the fingering for the rest of the tune would work as well as (or better than) in D.

@Mark M: Nothing wrong with transposing it down to C major for curiosity’s sake. But as a ‘solution’ (arguably to a non-existent problem)? I think transposing might cause more problems of its own (not that these are a reason not to do it) than this one slightly sticky sequence of notes.

//What you can’t see, and what I don’t think anyone here has mentioned, is that doing this smoothly requires excellent bow control, since the bow must be quickly rebalanced going from the D string up to the E string.//

Ergo, are you suggesting the bow is lifted off the D string and set down again on the E string?

Another option, but this time changing a few notes in the last 2 bars,to avoid the string hop :

|:fg|ag (3fed gfec|dcde fdAF|GA (3BAG FAdf|gfed e2fg|

“Ergo, are you suggesting the bow is lifted off the D string and set down again on the E string?”

It must be - very quickly - unless you want to play the A string on the way by.

Like this lady - note the bow movement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Paiz0-yO1Sk

play video

Ergo-thanks, yes that’s what I thought you meant.

Kenny: ““No, that’s right, low E to 2nd octave F# for sure".
It’s not “right” - it’s one way of playing it.
Anyway, glad that the OP has got something from the discussion.“

What I meant is that it is played that way by some players and not a transcription “error” just because someone find it hard to play. I play it that way, lots of players around my area do as well.

//I play it that way, lots of players around my area do as well.//

Michael, just curious, how do you finger the low E and subsequent high F#? (I’m assuming your talking about fiddle fingering?)

I don’t play fiddle, but on mandolin I’d just jump the index over.

https://thesession.org/tunes/1636#setting39097
Setting from Breandan Breathnach - source Sonny Brogan.
[ PS - “Chieftains 1”, not “Chieftains 2” - memory playing tricks again. ]

I would guess that if you gave this tune to several different trad players of various instruments, had them go off individually to learn it, when they came back several of them would have changed that phrase to suit their instrument and/or their personal style or inclinations.

As I said above I would have changed it immediately to something that feels more “native” on the flute to me.

About people accepting the version linked to in the OP as being correct, I think people are discussing that version not because they believe it’s correct but because it’s the version the person who started this thread established as the topic of discussion.

The OP linked to the tune page (currently) w/six settings of the tune. It’s not a link to a specific version, Richard.

//The OP linked to the tune page (currently) w/six settings of the tune. It’s not a link to a specific version, Richard.//

Ben, I should point out that the link to the tune [ https://thesession.org/tunes/1636 ] takes you straight to the 1st setting of the tune, which is the one that had the “awkward” phrase in it.

Only settings 4 and 6 do not contain that phrase, but the others do.

Jim, you can link to each setting separately. This is the link for the 1st setting.
https://thesession.org/tunes/1636#setting1636

Ben, yes, it’s obvious now you mention it 🙂

I often mouse-over links to get the URL, although in the case of tune settings, historically I’ve normally just referred to them as “setting #1”, or whatever.

Late to the discussion, but as a fiddler who is basically self-taught, Jim’s finger suggestion actually makes a lot of sense. I tried it the other day, and it’s much easier, economical and pitch-accurate than planting the index finger across three strings. OK, that’s “easier” but also results in a less accurate pitch. Thanks Jim. (Personally, though, I’d probably take the easiest road and just change the melody, but that’s another story.)

@Jeff - Jim wasn’t actually the first person to suggest it.

But as I said earlier, it really should not be necessary to use the 2nd finger (or to roll the first one across). If you (meaning anyone) can’t pick up and move your first finger to the next-string-but-one in the time it takes you to move your bow the same distance, I don’t know what to say to you - except practise doing just that.

Ah, now I see. A good suggestion nevertheless. I find string skipping a bit risky, at least between eight notes at hornpipe speed.

Let’s just say that there’s an easy way to do it, and a difficult way 🙂

You either do it the easy way (fingering 1-2 for the E and f#), or you do it the difficult way (fingering 1-1 and jumping across 2 two strings).

Try both, and see what works for you.

That’s a move that’s almost alien to Irish fiddling, but it’s common in classical music. Much depends on your technical background, as to which option you find easier.

“Much depends on your technical background, as to which option you find easier.”

I’m a self-taught musician; reasonably proficient on guitar, bass, mandolin and banjo.
Jumping across two strings (or courses) on any of those instruments with my index finger, when I’ve got another finger doing nothing, seems really quite clumsy to me (I’ve been trying it!).
It’s a bit like trying to reach the high ‘b’ on the mandoline E-course: I often try and play it with my ring finger, , even if that means anticipating it and adjusting my position in the run up to it. This isn’t always possible, but I think it’s more stable than trying to leap up there with my pinkie! There are clearly no rules about this though, which is interesting in itself!

Transposing the tune into C seems like swallowing a spider to catch a fly if it is only to accommodate that one phrase. As Kenny and lots of other people have pointed out, the setting with the jump from low E to high f is merely one possible version.

For years I have played bars 11 and 12 as: GABG FGA2 | efgf e2fg

It should be possible to come up with variants that are playable without doing violence to the spirit of the tune.

//It should be possible to come up with variants that are playable without doing violence to the spirit of the tune.//

Agreed .. so I’ve added another setting of the tune, with a few fingering / melodic variations to get round the difficulty of that jump of a ninth in bar#12 :

https://thesession.org/tunes/1636#abc7