Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

So, i play whistle.
I was at my local session tonight (a Comhaltas one) and fancied singing a song as the evening wore on - the Boys of Barr na Sraide is what I went for because I was feeling homesick (also because there’s not so many songs i can be sure of knowing all the words for, but this one i’ve had in my head since my Dad bootlegging Arcady on cassette tape.) It went alright and people enjoyed it, i’m not a great singer at all but sometimes just playing jigs & reels doesn’t idk…

Anyway the landlord collared me on the way out and had a right go at me for singing a ‘sectarian’ song. Well, it is about the Troubles i guess, but that’s not why i sang it, nor am I even the first person to have sung that particular song in a session in that pub! This publican is a miserable @rse, and i think he has it in for me in particular, i’m not sure why exactly. I mean people have sung outright rebel songs and nobody batted an eye.

Me, i’ve copped it from this landlord for finishing a sandwich outside waiting for the Comhaltas AGM to finish so i can play some tunes, now this. Generally, i’m pretty inoffensive. I go to the session to play, catch up with the people there, who i have a lot of time for - not sure what his problem is, beyond being a plastic paddy who generally is happy for us to spend our money but honestly hates the music generally apart from that it makes him a bit more money of a tuesday night and is ostentatiously clockwatching from 11 pm on.

Landlords generally on a power trip. I’m sure i’m about to be barred; i mean i haven’t sung in public for more than 2 years i just fancied it tonight, and i didn’t see myself doing it again for another year or more, but i wish i knew what the real reason is. I’m on a hiding to nothing, but i dislike bullies. Feel like telling him to stick his pub, saves time waiting for him to come up with an excuse to bar me. Even before this he’s forever giving me looks like i’ve just took a dump on the pub floor. wtf did i actually do exactly?

I go there to try and lose myself in the music, it doesn’t always work but its the best remedy i have for life’s troubles lol. The musicians there are so warm & supportive (more really than i deserve) and i’d just got to a point where i felt i could go there & let my guard down (have an anxiety disorder). now this.

Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

You don’t sound like a happy camper … ! (Sorry - nothing constructive to offer, other than sympathies.)

Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

@meself feel i would be a happier camper if people didn’t take such umbrage at me for being me lol.
Tho i do feel like asking myself in this moment: What would Father Jack do?

Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

TheHappyCamper, I kinda figured you might have an anxiety disorder so that’s not a surprise. You are great at telling the story of the night’s events. I appreciate reading every word exactly as written. But it sounds like the musicians in your local session are wonderful people & if they are supportive it’s just who they are. Love that!

If you do get banned by the landlord it’s not the end of the world; or it doesn’t have to be. I don’t know if I can offer any helpful advice. Frankly I think when it’s about a forum member’s local session the Mustard can only listen and give limited feedback. Because; anything which is going to be resolved ain’t happening here. It always comes down to what happens where you are.

Having said that I’m pretty sure I get where you are coming from thinking the landlord is harassing you
{because he can} & that puts you in a compromising situation. It sucks. What would Father Jack do?

Lots of luck!

edit: "Feel like telling him to stick his pub, saves time waiting for him to come up with an excuse to bar me." If you have to you have to. Speaking only for myself, I wouldn’t go there if I was you.

AB

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Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

Cheers AB, yea the musicians there are really sound, and have gone out of their way to be good to me too. That’s why i’m narked about the likelihood of getting kicked out this session. There’s other sessions locally, but they’re once a month, and further afield.

I kinda feel blindsided by this a bit, I’d no great love for the publican but had assumed he was just an @rse to everyone and that it wasn’t a personal animosity. So i just had as little to do with him as possible and carried on as normal. His staff are really nice too, its just him. But i was always polite, i thanked him on the way out, and then he went off on one. So I now reckon he has got it in for me.

very little i can do if he wants me gone, honestly.

glad you enjoyed the story, i tried to see the funny side of it, the pompous wee person that he clearly is.

ps I think Fr. Jack would chin him and stick him in his dirty laundry hamper (which he did to the sarcastic priest, Father Jessup). A fate worse than Death.

Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

That settles it. Fr. Jack has to attend the next session at your local.

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Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

A long while back at the Shamrock hotel in Townsville (Qld. Australia), me and my band did a song that went "Poor Ned, you’re better off dead". It’s about Ned Kelly. After we finished some old guy came up to me very upset and said, "How dare you sing a song about that guy being dead? I know somebody who died!"…. I asked him if the said person was called Ned, and he said "No". There is just no explaining people.

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Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

You’re on a hiding to nothing here. Go to another session.
"The Boys of Barr na Sraide" pre-dates "the Troubles" :
Wikipedia -

"The Boys of Barr na Sráide" is a well-known Irish song from a poem written by Irish poet Sigerson Clifford (1913–1985). It is named after a street (Irish: Barr na Sráide, meaning ‘top of the street’) in Cahersiveen in County Kerry, Ireland. Clifford was born in Cork city, though both his parents came from Kerry.

The song was first published in Ballads of a Bogman, 2nd edition, in 1986. However, it was well-known long before the book was published, though it did not appear in the first edition (1955).[1]

The poem recalls the life of the author’s boyhood friends starting from when they were young children through to the Black and Tan period, and up to Civil War. The poem speaks of the Irish tradition of "hunting for the wran" (wren), a small bird, on St. Stephen’s Day, 26 December.[2]

The song was first aired on Irish radio by singer Seán Ó Síocháin on a programme called The Balladmakers Saturday Night in the 1950s. Ó Siocháin got to know Clifford through their work on the programme. The song was requested many times and became the most popular song of the series.[3] It has since been recorded by numerous traditional and folk singers. Christy Moore popularised it in the 1970s and later it was recorded by Seán Garvey and Tim Dennehy, both from Cahersiveen

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Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

Gobby, I’ve not heard that song for about 40 years , written by Aussie Trevor Lucas who i think might have been in Fairport Convention briefly. I remember our ceili band played a mixed Catholic/Loyalist Irish wedding a few years back - we were asked to sing Fields of Athenry which resulted in cheers from one side of the hall and catcalls from the other. At least it didnt end in a fight.

Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

Assume you’re still somewhere in the West of Scotland? If so, people get pretty twitchy about what they *think* is a sectarian song, regardless of its provenance/history/anything else. I can kind of appreciate why a pub landlord might be wary, depending on neighborhood and clientele, if they think it might kick off a bar fight.

Years ago, I was at a session where a group of visiting Irish teenagers were playing. At the end of the night, the kids (and the adults who knew it…not me) all played the Irish national anthem. The pub landlord lost his sh* at the session organizers, saying if they played any more ‘sectarian songs,’ the session would be unceremoniously ejected from the pub. One of the guys who was running the session that night was Irish, and he was raging.

For some people in this weird corner of the world, anything that vaguely relates to the Irish wars for independence = sectarian. Luckily, plenty of pubs don’t care, and you can sing what you like.

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It sounds like a pretty nice session that mostly works well for you. What about the possibility of sorting this out with him?

He misread the theme of your song, you & he have a tendency to clash, he’s a landlord, and he ought to be more cheerful. Ok, but these are not irredeemable faults. On the plus side he makes welcome a weekly Comhaltas session, which is a big plus. He might respond well to a conciliatory gesture.

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Obviously I don’t know you, the landlord, or anything other than the post but from the above my impressions are:

- It’s nothing to do with the song (you said it and other songs have been sung before with no issues).

- There’s some pre-existing tension between you and the landlord (he already looked at you like you’ve pooed on the floor, and to be honest the way you talk about him/his behaviours, you clearly don’t like/hate him and I’m sure that means you subconsciously give off signals to him/he knows).

If the above is right, realistically I think your only choice is to clear the air with him somehow…
Ultimately even if he is a d**k, it’s his pub and you have to get along in some way if you want to keep going to the (what sounds like a great) session.

I’d visit the pub on a quiet, non-session period and have a word with him and say: you thought about it and (even if you’re not), you’re really sorry the song you sang upset him so much and that you want to keep coming as you like the pub and what can you do to make his life easier whilst you’re there as it must be hard having a lot of musicians about at a busy time.

Hopefully this will start a friendly conversation (which I find sorts most things)/clear the air. If it doesn’t/he replies in an odd way, then maybe it won’t work out there.

</amateur_agony_aunt_attempt!>

Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

"And when the hills were bleedin’ and the rifles were aflame
To the rebel homes of Kerry the Saxon strangers came,
But the men who dared the Auxies and fought the Black-and-Tan
Were the Boys of Barr na Sráide who hunted for the wren."

Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

Sometimes it’s better simply to apologise, even if you think you’re in the right, and even if (especially if) the other person is a miserable @rse. However you don’t know all the circumstances he is facing, and if sectarian differences are an issue with his clientele he may feel he has to tread carefully. Even if you don’t regard the song as sectarian, the verse Tom B-R quotes could be inflammatory for some. So whatever you really think, apologise for your mistake and promise not to sing it again.

You ask what you have done to provoke his more general attitude towards you. For a start, you took your own food, even if you did stand outside the premises to eat it. Most pubs depend to a greater or lesser extent on food sales, and this might have annoyed him. Is there anything else you might have done which you might not have thought were a problem but might unintentionally have upset him?

Maybe you spend less than he thinks reasonable in return for providing you with a space to play. I am very conscious that at my local session I don’t spend much because I have to drive. The pub is very kind to us, but they’re not making very much from us.

Perhaps a chat, away from the session, might clear the air. Ultimately, even if you think he’s being unreasonable, it’s his pub and he can decide who he lets in, so you’re the one who needs to change.

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Strikes me you could have been treading on eggshells without knowing it. Even tunes used for songs related to the 1798 rebellion have caused problems at sessions I’ve been too.

I don’t think it’s so much as songs being ‘sectarian’ as being songs sung in recent memory with political intent.

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Cahersiveen song by Sigerson Clifford lyrics. Best version by Niamh Parsons. Wouldn’t be considered “rebel” in these parts but there is a nod to the boys who squared up to the B&Ts, Saxon strangers and sent them homeward tae think again.

https://youtu.be/ZPj8z6g0tek


Solids like you are at risk of being sent to Coventry over this which is a a tough outcome. Life too short for angst. Make sincere effort to mend bridges with owner. Wish ya luck, sounds like a nice session and good bunch of people.

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The session is in the West Midlands of England - i’m not going to be more specific because if i say the town i then pretty much identify the session, and i don’t want to stir things.

I don’t think it’s the song per se that’s at the heart of it. I’ve heard outright rebel songs sung there (mostly a thing that plastic paddies do because they think it’s cool, usually non-regulars with guitars). Then again another fella sung Boys of Barr na Sraide there first a while back and he is a regular there.

You do have to be sensitive, and rightly so, because the music is not about being divisive but there’s a world of difference between Boys of Barr na Sraide and e.g. Valley of Knockanure (another song i like that i’ve never sung because for me it shades the line of glorifying violence) and again a world of difference from outright sectarian songs which are vile.

In a way, its simple, don’t sing the song, ok, its not like i sing very often anyway.

re the landlord, i dislike him true enough, but i’ve been polite, i make a point of being so, in fact i thanked him on the way out the door which was when he got up on his trotters and had a go at me. He usually outright blanks me, which is rude enough in and of itself. I have an inkling that it might be to do with some aggro that happened 10+ years ago when the Comhaltas session was in a different pub. Certainly i can’t think of anything else i’ve done because there literally *isn’t* anything else. Or i might just be overthinking things as usual.

I am on a hiding to nothing. I might attempt to clear the air, if only because it’s bugging me trying to work out what his problem is beyond being a miserable old cuss.

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Sorry to hear of your experience, Happy Camper. I guess that trying to have a further polite conversation with the landlord might help to unravel what he thought was objectionable about your song, which no doubt you sang as folk song describing Irish history rather than for any political motive. (See also Kenny’s post.)
And Christy mentioned the diverse reactions to “Fields of Athenry” - I was shocked and disgusted when I sang it once in a folk session that three people I had hitherto regarded as friends and fellow folk musicians, and who, I thought, knew me well enough to understand that I am NOT a political animal, stood up in unison and marched out of the session. Why? Because they were Rangers football supporters and this was in their eyes a Celtic FC song, and could therefore be classed as sectarian. I have sung it again since - but usually preceded it by saying “This is a folk song, and has nothing at all to do with football”.

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Okay, this time I’ve got to ask: what on earth is "a hiding to nothing"?

Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Football’ songs.

"… three people I had hitherto regarded as friends and fellow folk musicians, and who, I thought, knew me well… stood up in unison and marched out of the session."
Now that is what I call (receiving) a hiding for nothing.

meself, as in tan your hide with a willow switch.

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Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

"Perhaps a chat, away from the session, might clear the air. Ultimately, even if you think he’s being unreasonable, it’s his pub and he can decide who he lets in, so you’re the one who needs to change."

Howard, I respectfully agree & disagree. There are two parties and if a chat away from the session is the best way to clear up the matter it has to be mutual. Yes, the landlord can decide who he lets in, yes he can bar TheHappyCamper, yes THC needs to change. I agree. Though ultimately they each can change together & strive to reconcile their differences. If you’re in doubt it’s in your ultimatum where I do not agree with your case.

Thank you,
AB

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Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

@meself - what on earth is "a hiding to nothing"?
It’s risk for no reward, expressed as betting odds.

Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

Ah! Thanks!

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Something that I don’t think has been mentioned, is there anyone you know well enough at the session to be able to ask them privately for their opinion.

Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

I find it very strange that a landlord who is happy to play host to a local Comhaltas group - playing Irish traditional music - gets so upset at someone singing a song, which although relatively recent in composition, would be firmly regarded as accepted as part of Ireland’s musical tradition.
It’s not going to happen, but there are always 2 sides to a story, and I can’t help but wonder what the landlord’s take on it would be.

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Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

Kenny, Irish musical traditions are a difficult and sensitive area. Simply playing traditional tunes is one thing, but as we all know that some tunes and even more songs have political and sectarian connotations, which are not necessarily obvious from the words themselves (as trish santer’s story about Fields of Athenry demonstrates).

These sensitivities are not confined to Ireland. The Troubles affected the whole of the UK. We are told the session is in the West Midlands, and there are still long and bitter memories there of the Birmingham pub bombings in 1974. I find it entirely understandable that a landlord might tolerate Irish music in general whilst still having objections to some aspects of it, whether on his own behalf or because of concerns about his customers.

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I’m well aware of all of that. Probably safest to ban singing altogether, then - no problem.

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Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

Strange story. Especially as it’s from the West Midlands. Possibly the Birmingham pub bombing of many years ago still resonates with him. I don’t offer any solutions besides what previous posters have suggested. Just some….sympathy is maybe too strong - support, maybe.
You don’t have to have a PhD in quantum mechanics to become a landlord, and this guy doesn’t sound like he’s up there with Schrodinger or Heisenberg. You’ve portrayed him as some kind of chip on his shoulder, selfish, greedy bigot. And you don’t particularly like him. What is it, do you think, apart from singing a "rebel song" (which it isn’t) that he doesn’t like about you? Figure that out and it might go some way to resolving this. Apart from that, seek out another session. Plenty in the Birmingham area.
Yes and there are other strange stories. Trish Santer’s being an example. I find the behaviour of the two Rangers supporters bizarre. What TF would they expect at an Irish trad session? Glasgow can be a strange place. I know. I’m from there.

Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

Trish’s session was probably not in Glasgow nor an Irish one as such.
However, you can find supporters of Rangers and Celtic everywhere in Scotland and many people will follow them even before their own local teams.

I was once advised that "You’ll never walk alone" was a Celtic song too. I’m sure that Rodgers and Hammerstein might have disagreed. Even Gerry Marsden too.

Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

Well, part of the problem is that there are some songs that are written for sectarian (or political) purposes, but probably a lot more that are not composed as such, but become sectarian by adoption, and unfortunately, football seems to add an extra and dangerous dimension. "The Fields of Athenry" relates to a period of British state oppression in Ireland (rather than the Troubles), but the main reason it was perceived as sectarian by Rangers supporters is probably that it is regularly sung by Celtic supporters.

DrSilverSpear mentions singing of the Irish national anthem but doesn’t say where. If it was in the West of Scotland it might be considered as provocative (depending on the pub’s clientele), just as singing "God Save the Queen" might be seen as provocative in many pubs in Ireland or parts of Northern Ireland.

And bear in mind that in the modern Western world we are in a culture where taking offence is regarded as far more important than whether any offence is intended.

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Go to the session. Chose a seat where the landlord does not catch your eye and rock on. Having a weekly session that is local to you a precious thing. I think that most people on here would put up with a grumpy landlord just to have a place to play.

A personal note: I hate the term Plastic Paddy. You used it in this thread to describe the landlord and to describe fellow musicians. I was born and raised in Ireland but never felt that I had the right to bestow or deny anyone’s "Irishness". Did you call him that to his face, or maybe he overheard you using the term?

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Johnny Jay - good point, I could have made a wrong assumption. Without wishing to hijack the discussion or embark on any political rant, even as an exile south of the border, I am a supporter of Scottish independence. But the Old Firm dominance of not only Scottish football, but also of the country’s cultural life, and is a major drawback which will have to be resolved, sooner rather than later. ‘Nuff said on this.

Also I agree with palumbex: that term Plastic Paddy is possibly not as insulting as the N-word, but it must grate on many 2nd generation Irish people in the UK. If THC ever called the landlord a PP to his face, maybe that’s the source of the guvnor’s hostility. The fact that THC uses it at all, never mind on this website to which many "PP"s subscribe, certainly reveals something about him. (him/her?)

Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

My ha’porth worth:
It can only really be sorted by speaking to the man in question. He may have thought you looked at him a funny way; he may not like something he thought he overheard you say the first time you came in; he may be genuinely worried about potential sectarianism (it occurs to me that he must have known the song or been listening to have an opinion on it one way or another) or he may have got you confused with someone else entirely. Whatever the answer is, you’ll only know by asking him and, as this hanging over you is going to keep spoiling your visits to his pub, I don’t think you’ve got much to lose! Agree about the expression "Plastic Paddy" - a definite no-no!

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Re the term "PP", there was quite a long discussion on this subject a while back….

https://thesession.org/discussions/19803

I like many others once used this term without realising fully what it meant or the history behind it. It’s quite likely that THC might be also be unaware of how offensive it’s useage can be.

Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

Get your group together and go to another pub. I am not sure where you are located, but I am sure that here would be another pub/saloon/restaurant/etc. in town.

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Johnny Jay surmised correctly re my previous post: the session in question was not in Glasgow, nor was it an "all Irish" one. It was the usual mixed bag of mainly songs - Scottish, Irish, American and others, with a few tunes thrown in.
And it was not on a big football match day either. ("Fields of Athenry" gets sung at rugby internationals too, but doesn’t cause any grief there!)
And tunes may not be immune from causing dissension as Johnny Jay says: try playing "The Sash" in certain pubs!

Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

"The Sash Me Father Wore" is a folk song describing Irish history. And its history can be traced back to the 19th century, so it’s "not about the Troubles." So … ?

It’s a case of ‘knowing your audience’!

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re my use of the PP epithet. Never said it about him till i was venting just now on here. As the consensus seems to be that is its borderline bigoted terminology, i’ll drop it.
——-
@Someone at the Session: Tho saying somebody is purporting to be something that they are not is hardly bigoted to my mind, nor really ‘certainly reveals something about him.’ FYI, I’m English, equally i don’t purport to be Irish even tho I’m immersed in the music. In terms of ancestry the landlord’s almost certainly more Irish than me. But if you host a Comhaltas session purely for the money while hating the music, i felt the cap fitted.
Calling somebody something would have been a pretty unequivocal way of putting myself in the wrong. Which i didn’t. It would almost certainly have got me immediately barred if I had…
also i wouldn’t assume automatically that i had to do something for him to take umbrage at. Or do, i guess. idc.
————————————-
There’s too many replies now to address everything, but my take is that the publican is generally disliked by the other session goers because he is without exception rude to everyone. But it’s a place to play. His dislike for me goes further. I’m not sure why honestly. I have tried to be friendly in the past and it has been disdained - he literally just walks off. Until t’other night i assumed it was his general personality and nothing personal. And assumed that i’d be alright if i just came to play tunes and talk to the people who aren’t being overtly rude i.e. all the other musicians, lots of the casual punters, and even the bar staff who are dead nice actually.

I don’t have the inclination to work out exactly what his problem is, i doubt there’s anything to be gained by talking to him, as i’m currently un-barred, he said his bit at the time, my replies were a waste of breath, even tho they were conciliatory. I talked to a longtime session-goer, he said the landlord’s out of order in the instance & is a rude so&so anyway and if i wanted he’d ask the comhaltas branch chairman to have a word. I declined, because i had the nightmare vision of the landlord kicking the session out over me, which would be just awful for them and they’ve been without exception good to me.

birmingham is close geographically, and i always liked the sessions there. the trouble is that the trains don’t run late to where i am from there so it kind of puts a 10 pm curfew on my visit unless i find a floor to crash on. It was worthwhile as hell when the tradfest was on, but who needs to sleep when the session finishes just in time for you to get a breakfast fryup and there’s another all day session starting in a couple hours?

Nvm, i’m sure i’ll get some music in somehow.

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Just keep going…. Enjoy the opportunity to play. The guy is rude to everyone anyway. If he is bullying you the best and safest answer is to just keep showing up.
Personally I would rather be barred than give up voluntarily. If you do that you will always wonder if you were wrong.

Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

Can I ask how many people were at this session, and in what size of a room ? What precautions were taken vis a vis Covid 19 ? I’m genuinely curious, as this is one of the first sessions I’ve heard of taking place inside a pub since the restrictions were lifted.

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Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

Good shout Kenny!

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Kenny…. The sessions in London that I have been to and spoken to others about seem to be continuing on as before. No talk of numbers or distancing.

Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

Words are local in how people perceive them. I think the internet has shifted the significance of that reality
& it’s much easier to weaponise phrases & effectively hurt innocent people, unwittingly. THC, personally
I found your 1st use of the ‘banned term’ stereotypical though not racist. Zina Lee would disagree & I am not insensitive to others (aside from the *landlord) who would be offended to read such language on this forum.
However, in your 2nd use of "PP" you used it against your fellow musicians. A perfect example of
a hiding to nothing. Broadly stereotypical, crudely bigoted & very insensitive. But you made a mistake
& learnt a better way right here, on this thread.

*THC’s opinion of the landlord is only from his perspective. Without more information I cannot fairly judge the landlord’s behaviour. In my gut I believe the landlord may be a bully to TheHappyCamper. Cannot know with certainty, but that’s where I’m at for now.

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Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

@Kenny, its pretty much like it was pre-lockdown. Quite a full pub. Then again, if it was full of people just drinking it’d be just as much risk of spreading covid. I’m honestly a bit hazy about the covid rules, but i’m pretty sure we’re still within them.
Other sessions I go to tend to still err on the side of caution. We just had a fine session last night in a marquee tent outside one of our regular haunts. Tho it was pitch dark & i dropped my whistle case in the marquee into what turned out in the cold light of day to be quite deep mud, also straw, which i’m picking off the sleeves of my low whistles just now. Grr, i’d just cleaned the whistles as well.)

Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

Thanks for the replies. Still waiting to hear of any sessions anywhere near me returning.

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Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs…Post lockdown…

I think we’re all a bit hazy about anything related to CoVid-19. At least the fires up here (northern California)
you can see ‘em. It’s the difference between external hazy (smoke & ash) vs. the visceral hazy of mind games which are constantly coming up around anything CoVid.
Stay healthy, try to keep informed & take it one day at a time.
😉

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Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

I think we should all continue to take care.
It does feel quite strange that restrictions are being greatly relaxed at a time when cases are higher than ever in some parts, especially "Here in Scotland".

I’m still happy to go out and about though but the onus does seem to be on us now as individuals to be careful and to choose our activities/venues/locations we visit wisely.
Some pubs and restaurants look very "iffy" to me these days although I wouldn’t have probably gone to most of them even before Covid. Others are still very well run and seem quite safe. We have to make up our own minds, I suppose.

Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

Totally agree Johnny Jay.

I’ve heard some of the pubs I used to play at in Glasgow are beginning to allow sessions again with no restrictions, just back to the good old life. I’m in my 30s and I won’t be going to any indoor sessions for the time being. I’m more than happy to attend outdoor sessions, which I’ve been doing since I got my jags, but indoors is a big no from me. I play blowy things, I would possibly consider it if I played a different instrument and could wear a mask while playing.

Maybe I worry too much, but there’s seems to be loads of folk acting as if COVID didn’t exist anymore. I don’t feel that way.

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Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

Hi David, the Islay session is supposedly restarting at the end of the month. Wish you were there instead of Spain. As to blowy things - why not put in some work on your practice set and let the bellows do the blowing.

Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

—"Something that I don’t think has been mentioned, is there anyone you know well enough at the session to be able to ask them privately for their opinion."—

Agreed— especially if they may have "outsider" view on what exactly about OP may be getting this pub owner’s hackles up. There has to be something, if OP is getting this kind of reaction and even feels banning is imminent, apparently no matter what they do (I assume getting banned from a business is a lot easier on that side of the pond? In the U.S., one would usually have to do something pretty egregious, like starting a fight or something. A business owner would have a solid reason, not merely "you rub me the wrong way for some reason and I’ve decided I’m sick of looking at you").


I can’t say I’m of the opinion that I think talking would help much— if this pub owner has already made a decision about OP to this extent (over apparently nothing), and if it’s not just about the singing of one song, I’m not sure what "a nice chat" could do except antagonize him further. Or, if there is something OP has done and doesn’t realize, it’s possible that during their talk they might do it again. If it were me, I’d avoid the guy and stay out of his sight as much as possible, and not invite further conflict by initiating a conversation (or possible conflict).

Unfortunately, THC, you may simply to have to stay out of this guy’s way and sight as much as possible, and keep your nose squeaky clean— not even an intimation of putting a toe outside the line (regardless of what others are doing). I’ve seen situations in the past where I’m dressed down for doing something I know others have also done with no consequences, and I’ll never know why it’s suddenly an offense when I do it— I just have to accept that for some reason, the rules are different for me than for everyone else with that particular person or situation and I need to walk the straight-and-narrow where they are concerned.

Sometimes it’s not even about you— you may look like someone they hate, might say or do something that isn’t actually problematic but they have a hangup, you may have mildly pissed them off one day when they were having an awful day and they forever associate you with that, may have gotten you mixed up with someone else who did something they didn’t like, someone may have falsely told them something about you, they may have misunderstood something you said or did, etc.

Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

We appear to be somewhat more tolerant in Oz. As a Scottish protestant i’ve reeled off many of the common Irish rebel songs in sessions, folk festivals, busking etc in Vic, SA and Canberra for almost 20 years. Our rebels for the cause seemed to have left the Troubles behind. Maybe time to immigrate Happy Camper.

Albaman

Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

It’s impossible to know the reasoning, if any. Perhaps the landlord preferred Niamh’s singing.
No offense intended, TheHappyCamper.

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Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

Thanks for that, Trish. It’s an interesting read. I’d LIKE to say I’d never dream of singing or playing anything as overtly political as "The Sash", just as I would never sing or play "Off to Dublin in the Green", but we quite regularly get requests for (and play) "The Fields of Athenry", so I guess that’s pretty hypocritical!
My remark about "knowing your audience" was a tongue-in-cheek way of saying one should always be aware of and sensitive to one’s surroundings and those who are present before launching into song.

Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

Well said Jimi Limpet. Agree with that.

Re: F’ing. L’rds. S’ian … {‘Teh..rivalry between these 2 p’ful teams obscures all of this’}

Thanks for the link, Trish. From the bits I read it reflects on what I’ve heard here (thesession.org) over the years. While reading I especially recall posts I’ve read from DrSilverSpear. By that I’m thinking of her keen observation of people "there in Scotland". Fortunately I don’t recall her ever using that phrase herself.
Though it is endearing when the natives use it here, on thesession.org. 😲

Seriously though, it’s fascinating to me. A couple of bits stood out on my first time briefly skimming through.

"17.9 What was striking however was not just where sectarianism happened, but where it did not.
Even in the most troubled areas, sectarianism appeared to happen only within particular places or
at particular times. Participants might live within a very short distance of each other, yet one might encounter sectarian behaviour daily, while another might have difficulty recalling any experience of it at all.
This makes it particularly hard to estimate the prevalence and nature of Scottish sectarianism."

"17.21 For many of our participants, Catholicism and Protestantism appear to play a much more muted role in Scottish life than might be supposed from the rivalry of the two teams. Many of our participants did not
associate themselves with any faith; several others who were religious nonetheless regarded it as a private matter. What is also important, though, is that a Catholic heritage remains a minority one. The focus on the rivalry between these two powerful teams obscures all of this."

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Re: Fuming. Landlords. ‘Sectarian’ songs.

Where I was brought up, in Inverness, there was no problem with sectarism. There was more likely to be friction between the "Wee Frees" and the "regular" Protestant community.
Not that there was any violence or real animosity, of course. Just a bit of "Tut, tutting" here and there if someone did something which wasn’t the norm on The Sabbath. 🙂

However, in my secondary school(Inverness Royal Academy) Roman Catholic students also attended and there was no segregation with the exception of twenty minutes on Wednesday when they had a different "RI" syllabus. We all attended Assembly together and sang the same hymns etc and, of course, classes and sports activities were all mixed too. Nobody worried worried one way or another what religion you were back then.

Until I left home to move to The Central Belt, I had never heard of an Orange Walk. They just didn’t happen up there. I believe they tried to introduce them in the seventies… Perhaps, it had something to do with the influx of oil workers etc from The Central Belt and elsewhere? I don’t know.
Anyway, I don’t think they ever took hold due to lack of interest and local objection.