Save The Cobblestone!

Just heard that there’s a planning application in to knock down most of the Cobblestone (only thing that would be left would be the main part of the pub) to build, wait for it…yet another fecking hotel! There’s an online petition going around though I don’t know what actual impact it can have but sure can’t hurt, might help, right? People can also register their objection to Dublin City Council, but of course the cute hoors changed things up so that to do so you now have to pay a €20 fee. If ye have that to spare and feel like registering objection to yet another hotel going up in a Dublin that is already heaving with the bleedin things I’m including the link for the Citizen Portal Planning application page, where you can lodge objections. They don’t make it straightforward (you need to set up an account) because the whole point is to try to dissuade people from following through. It would be heartbreaking for the Cobblestone to be lost.

https://planning.agileapplications.ie/dublincity/application-details/146422

https://my.uplift.ie/petitions/save-the-cobblestone

Signed.

Surely you’d have to live within Dublin for your petition to be valid?

Signed …. some really good memories of the Cobblestone!!

The Covblestone is a crucial tourist asset to Dublin City Council as well as a cultural institution for residents. I think all views on the planning application are legitimate if framed accordingly.

Sure, all views on planning applications would be legitimate if framed accordingly but but that’s a separate thing that gets presented by individuals or interested parties. Petitions (i.e., a list of names) have to be presented presented in the formal manner and I seriously doubt that the Dublin City Council will be accepting names and addresses from all over the world. If, for instance, I was to sign it from Australia it would count for nothing. I’ve never even been to Dublin, but how would they know? It takes very little to have a petition ruled invalid. There are two sides to the argument and it only takes a reasonable legal objection from your opposition. I have seen a petition totally dismissed simply because more than one person signed it twice. That was enough to make it invalid. As it’s a local planning issue I imagine that all overseas signatures would be ruled out.

Online petitions work differently Gobby - online petitions are commonly signed by people from all over. That doesn’t get them thrown out. The petition doesn’t have any legal standing, all it does is demonstrate to the powers that be that there is strong opposition to the council’s plans to knock down the Cobblestone. Large numbers of signatures from all over could potentially sway decision makers as they may be concerned about optics and how it looks for them to be knocking down a well loved and cherished part of the traditional music community - both the local one, and the global community.

Okay, I admit that I have no idea about face-book type petitions. I was just concerned that a ‘formal’ petition may be invalidated. Democracy should rule, but it rarely does.

Can’t hurt, and might help. I hope the phrase “international outcry” features prominently in news reports.

Well I’ve signed and I’m outcrying from South London, Europe.

Just signed, What a great shame to even contemplate knocking such a marvellous venue, some mighty sessions took place there.

Just signed, love from South of France.
And good luck to you, gentrification is a problem everywhere.

[Just for online information: I just heard Ireland have signed a deal with Brazil to supply cheap drone taxis. To begin with it’s for transport between the very best places and the airport, I guess.
Exciting times, lots of money moving around, but a lot social issues that need to be addressed too.]
Anyway, I’m back to the tunes.

After reading this I would love to sign,…..
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/lets-keep-the-interesting-parts-of-dublin-sacred-fears-for-character-of-cobblestone-pub-in-hotel-plan-40924207.html.
However, not only do I refuse to use face-book, they have suspended my account. I have no idea why. Is there somewhere else?

I don’t understand the comments about not being able to sign the petition because I refuse to use Facebook… The petition isn’t hosted on Facebook. It’s hosted on myuplift.ie

The original post contained a link which had been copied, I assume, from a Facebook post (given the code after the URL proper). Here’s a link without all that fa-laa fa-laa. https://my.uplift.ie/petitions/save-the-cobblestone

By the way, not sure how the planners will use this info to determine that there’s been an international outcry since the survey doesn’t ask for any demographic data whatsoever. Just name and email address.

Thanks Aidan. I just read the word(s) facebook and didn’t even try. I will sign.

Signed. We were in Dublin in 2015 and went to just about every pub in Dublin proper looking for some trad and found none. Eventually, we went to The Brazen Head where we discovered to our dismay that they had “Something special tonight! Country and Western”. Oh crap, we live in Arizona and we’re surrounded by that kind of music. The barkeep told us to walk across the river to the Cobblestone for real Irish trad. We did and it’s a memory I’ll always cherish. I would hate to see it diluted by the commercialism that would come with being a part of a hotel.

Decision makers pay more attention to letters and e-mails than petitions. Sign a petition if you like, but consider also sending a *polite* short letter or email expressing your opinion and concern, the cultural significance, and, (especially if you’re not in Ireland), how and why you are affected.

@Tracie, true but it’s common for the media here to pick up stories when petitions garner loads of signatures, so it’s just one of several avenues that can be taken to raise awareness and public support.

https://thesession.org/recordings/1485

https://thesession.org/recordings/5908

As a frequent visitor to the cobblestone, both to drink, to listen and to play I support the petition fully. There is no doubt that the Cobblestone is a very important culture/heritage centre and I think this will have to be recognised by the planning authorities. I wonder if instead of it becoming a hotel residents bar the present owners can negotiate to be funded to build a new ITM centre including the bar, a theatre and other rooms for music/sessions. This would fit in with the supposed ethos of the Smithfield area. It would lose the charm of the present set up for sure but if the development cannot be stopped it might be a good option.

For anyone interested I just saw a post that Cormac Begley put up on Instagram that there’s going to be a march this Saturday Oct 9th, at 1pm, from Smithfield Square to the Dublin City Council offices.

Signed from Norway!

Signed.

The Smithfield/Stonebatter area’s been messed around with for the last three decades.

It’s not the most attractive part of Dublin, though it is near a variety of tourist sites (Jameson Distillery, Collins Barracks, Phoenix Park, St Michan’s). There is already the Maldon Smithfield hotel just across the road from The Cobblestone as well as the budget Generator nearby and four other hotels nearby between Smithfield and Phoenix Park.

Smithfield was also the site of the acclaimed Ceol Hotel (https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/hotel-ceol-1.176904) which didn’t last all that long and neither did its replacement the Park Hotel.

I hope that the company which has applied for planning permission, Marron Estates Ltd, is just testing the water, but I’d urge anyone living in Ireland to consider commenting upon the proposal.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/planning_permission/commenting_on_planning_application.html

Well, I’m a Yank resident for now in Cambridge, England. I signed on FB. When I’m in Ireland, i often make a point of stopping in Dublin, in large part because the music scene there is good. That’s because I can count on the Cobblestone. Take that away, and things change, don’t they? If the City Council wants P.g. to spend his money in Dublin, they should keep the Cobblestone around. I bet I’m not alone in that.

Although most of my time in Ireland is spent in the West, most of my fondest memories regarding music in Dublin are from the Cobblestone sessions and performances in the back room. So I signed, as well.

I am now feeling rather embarrassed about my initial response to the petition and thinking that it was a local matter. It wasn’t till I saw the image of that pub that I realised, even here in Australia, how familiar it was to me as a Dublin icon. It absolutely horrifies me that they would even think to demolish such a building with so much cultural heritage. All around the world we should hit the bastards boots and all with whatever means we can.

Signed from Ufa, Russia

@Reverend: Like you I’ve not spent a lot of time in Dublin, using it mainly as a stopover on the way out west. But whenever I’ve had an overnight stay there, I have always made a point of making a visit to The Cobblestone, and have never yet been disappointed. I have one particular memory of going there when Catherine McEvoy, her family and friends were playing. I had taken my mandolin with me – not with the intention of playing, but because I did not want to leave it unattended in the hostel I was staying in – and secreted it stealthily under a table. Unfortunately, I had to leave early, as the hostel had an 11 o’clock curfew. As I was walking towards the door, Catherine McEvoy spotted the instrument case in my hand and shouted, “Well, would you look at that? He’d an instrument with him all along and he never played it!”, then turned to me and called out, “You’re very bold!”

That was just one night, but I feel it exemplifies the whole ethos of the place – music that I considered ‘too good’ for me to join in with, yet no sense of preciousness among the musicians. I hope that the officials in Dublin’s planning department appreciate the difference between a venue like this and the music pubs on Temple Bar* that use traditional music as part of a commercial ‘Irish experience’ whose end goal is selling as much Guinness as possible to as many tourists as possible, not nurturing a cultural treasure.

*I realise I am making a generalisation here – I don’t know every pub on Temple Bar and I am sure they vary in their attitudes to music and musicians.

Petition signed! Never been, but looks like a nice place 🙂

There are 24,040 signatures for anyone wondering as of 10:30 October 8th

I’ve signed it.

It would be so sad for the Dublin trad music community if it got gutted or knocked down. Are there any local journalists who can offer some naming and shaming? I could write a thing, but probably better if someone who worked for the Irish Times or whatever did it.

Are there any big cheeses in Dublin City Council that happen to be trad musicians?

Would it be proper to post email addresses here of relevant officials or organizations, so we could reach out to them individually?

https://www.dublincity.ie/residential/planning/planning-applications/object-or-support-planning-application

https://planning.agileapplications.ie/dublincity/application-details/146422

@joe fidkid - here’s a list of city councillors for Dublin/their contact info who are listed as being on the Planning Committee:

https://councilmeetings.dublincity.ie/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=162

https://councilmeetings.dublincity.ie/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=945

https://councilmeetings.dublincity.ie/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=656

https://councilmeetings.dublincity.ie/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=829

https://councilmeetings.dublincity.ie/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=148

https://councilmeetings.dublincity.ie/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=141

https://councilmeetings.dublincity.ie/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=138


https://councilmeetings.dublincity.ie/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=830

https://councilmeetings.dublincity.ie/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=949

https://councilmeetings.dublincity.ie/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159

https://councilmeetings.dublincity.ie/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=152

Good turn out for the protest in Dublin today and great that it generated news coverage:

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2021/1009/1252709-dublin-cobblestone/

Signed - from Canada

First session I ever played was at the Cobblestone - just after I turned 71! Some very kind people allowed me to sit in with my whistle. It was the thrill of my life!

Some more coverage of Saturday’s march - https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/cobblestone-trad-music-pub-hundreds-protest-plan-for-hotel-1.4696331

There’s a comment piece as well but it might only be accessible for subscribers. Not sure but the link is https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/una-mullally-cobblestone-protest-s-potency-a-portent-of-what-is-to-come-1.4696470

It’s 20 years since I lived in Dublin and even then the Cobblestone was a consistently good venue for traditional music. If you haven’t signed the petition, then please do.

Fifty objections lodged already, including ones from people outside of Dublin and in other countries - go on ye good things!

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/1015/1254024-objections-to-hotel-plan-over-cobblestone-pub/

Triplet Upstairs: I sent a short respectful email to each of the city councillors on the planning committee. Thank you for the list! No responses (no surprise there) except an automated email informing me that Jane Horgan-Jones is on maternity leave. Best wishes to the new mum and child.

I’m sure that many musicians who frequent this site may be aware that Dublin’s foremost traditional music pub, the Cobblestone, in Smithfield, Dublin 7, is under threat as the owners of the site plan to build a large hotel right beside the premises which will both engulf the present Cobblestone and take away about two thirds of its present area.

Protest marches have been held in Dublin over a number of weeks, and letters of objection have been lodged with Dublin City Council to try to prevent the owners from obtaining planning permission for the site.

There is also an online petition that we would urge all supporters of Irish traditional music to sign.

https://my.uplift.ie/petitions/save-the-cobblestone?fbclid=IwAR10XOTdcf_EvBjHTc9XuNO-KzSb_ELZW4MgIIjhzLvzMcbBq3DucyrPTLE.

Many thanks to all.

Just got an email notification from Dublin City Council - planning permission for the hotel on the Cobblestone site was refused!

Brief entry on the Irish Times website today (more to follow).

‘Dublin City Council has refused permission for the controversial demolition of the Cobblestone traditional-music pub in Smithfield in Dublin. It says the proposed development, “resulting in the loss of the existing Backroom area, which has developed as a space for teaching, rehearsal and performance for traditional music to the rear of the Cobblestone public house, and which is considered to make an important contribution to the cultural offering in the area, would be contrary to development plan policies … and would set an undesirable precedent in this regard. The proposal would therefore be contrary to development plan provisions in respect of culture in the city, and to the proper planning and sustainable development of the area.”’

The later and longer entry can be found here - https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/cobblestone-controversial-redevelopment-plan-refused-by-dublin-city-council-1.4741692.

From today’s Irish Times (30/04/2022)

Developer drops planning appeal over hotel at Cobblestone pub
Olivia Kelly

Developers behind plans to build a hotel surrounding the Cobblestone bar in Smithfield, which were refused by Dublin City Council last year, have dropped their appeal to An Bord Pleanála.

Marron Estates Ltd had applied to the council for a nine-storey 114-bedroom, hotel at 77-80 North King Street, which includes the Cobblestone.

As a protected structure, the pub would have been retained as part of the proposed development, but an outdoor area and the pub’s Backroom venue would have been demolished.

The council last November refused permission on grounds largely relating to the size and impact on historic structures.

The company appealed the decision to the board and earlier this year proposed a scaled back development of seven storeys and “the retention of the entire Cobblestone pub over all floors at basement, ground and first and second floors” according to planning documents.

The removal of the back room area of the pub was a controversial component of the original scheme and was also a specific ground of refusal by the council.

Read about that earlier today - fantastic news!