Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

Hey Folks, there is a tune for this one here in the library: # Added by JACKB 5 years ago.

Can someone listen here and assist with some ideas for beginners, to add some ornamentation into the song? I already play it with the cuts but are those rolls in the YT version on the As? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr9fqrUsENI


thanks
J

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Re: Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

To what purpose?

If you’re already adding cuts and rolls, what else does the tune need?

The idea of "adding some ornamentation to the song" implies that there is a song (tune) and there is ornamentation that you add like salt to a recipe.

Instead the question perhaps should be "Is what you are already doing enhancing or distracting from the rhythm and flow of the tune?", not "What the absolute maximum amount of salt can I add to this recipe before it is no longer recognizable as food?".

Re: Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

The first tune is called: If its sick its tae you want. I think the version we’re listening to is how it should be, it needs nothing doing to it.

Re: Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

@gooseinthenettles – I assume ArcticAllen is asking for the ornamentation used in the recording to be added to the notation, not for additional ornamentation to what it already being played.

Re: Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

Thanks, CreadurMawnOrganig. I AM asking what is happening in the song. Perhaps my typo after this: "but are those rolls in the YT version" threw them! *shrugs

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Re: Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

Just a heads up - it’s a tune, not a song - songs have words.

Re: Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

Can I be a beginner and not have everyone jump on me and be rude? No is the answer.

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Re: Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

@ Boohoo - I didn’t think anybody was rude. Some people made suggestions and some corrected you gently.

Re: Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

OP only wants to know if what he hears on the A’s are rolls (in the youtube vid linked). Afaik he still didn’t get any answer to what was asked.

My hear / experience to this is not good enough so I can’t answer his question (else I would) but I would appreciate if someone could answer his question.

Re: Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

I mean this honestly and sincerely as positive advice, - and I’m not being "rude". You ask - "are these rolls on the As" ? It doesn’t matter - unless you want to play the tune note for note as Matt Molloy does, and good luck with that.
Play the tune with the ornamentation YOU want to play it with. Try for yourself putting rolls in on the As - does that work for you ? Fine. But remember that most traditional Irish musicians will vary the ornamentation in any tune. Rolls may be included in one playing of a tune, but possibly something different on the repeat of a part or the second time round. Variety is the spice of………… Irish traditional music.
And I would recommend you listen to as many players as you can playing any tune. You’ll not get better than Matt Molloy for Irish flute, but there are others who have different approaches.

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Re: Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

@Boohoo – I assume it is the 3rd bar of the 1st part you are referring to, as I can’t hear any As anywhere else in the tune. Yes, I think I hear a short roll on the A crotchet (1/4-note) – followed by a G quaver (1/8-note).

Re: Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

I listen and find it really hard to analyse exactly what’s being applied. It seems a bit like asking what Jimmy Hendrix is doing. So I agree especially with Micheal Eskin’s reply (also, by-the-way, with the inevitable correction from Triplet Upstairs. It was inevitable that somebody would say it, and it’s neither a rude nor irrelevant correction).

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Re: Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

First, I don’t think Molloy is rolling that A. I think he’s just doing a longer/softer cut to add a little extra depth. I could be wrong, I’m not really a flute player, but if he’s doing some fancy double cuts or double pats or something, that is Matt Malloy territory, and not something to worry about for a beginner, or for most of the rest of us.

Second, and others may know better, but I’ve never known rolls to be terribly common in slides. In any case, they are not required in playing slides, nor even integral to the music like they are with reels.

I’ll end here and let others jump in if they want. Gotta head to my date.

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Re: Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

Aaron, if you’re still there, check out Creadur’s response above. ^^
You too, Boohoo.

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Re: Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

I would just play the tunes as I see fit, and stop, stripping it down and trying to put it back together. Its time wasted.

Re: Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

Each to their own, gooseinthenettles. It may be fine, if you have already internalised traditional style, to simply ‘play as you see fit’. But for someone coming to traditional music ‘cold’, a bit of analysis might sometimes be what is needed to get sounding ‘in the ballpark’. I agree with your sentiment, however - it is ultimately more important to find your own way with the music than to achieve technical brilliance or to replicate note-for-note the playing of another player however brilliant.

Re: Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

> "…it is ultimately more important to find your own way with the music than to achieve technical brilliance or to replicate note-for-note the playing of another player however brilliant."

I agree with this, however, I will say that when I was first starting out, taking a recording that I loved and breaking it apart really helped me start to understand phrasing and the sheer range of possibility for expressing a tune with my instrument. So I don’t begrudge anyone who is searching for more knowledge. Not everyone grew up surrounded by this music, and analyzing things for yourself is a great way to get inspired and learn things at the same time. I guess that’s just a wordier way of saying ‘in the ballpark’. 😉

Re: Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

>What the absolute maximum amount of (edit) *garlic* can I add to this recipe before it is no longer recognizable as food?

Isn’t this the most legitimate approach to cooking - I don’t see the problem here?

I agree with Reverend. As a beginner especially, I think it can’t hurt to really hone in on a favourite players style via recordings and transcriptions, I think finding one’s own way is the ultimate goal, but along the journey some focused ‘copying’ is only going to help in terms of picking up decent intutitions etc. It’s difficult to know where to put ornaments and how many to put in, and alongside deep listening, copying is one way of learning. Great artists steal and all that…

Practically speaking, I would download the youtube video as an mp3 (google ‘download youtube video as mp3’) and then play it through an app that slows it down so you can hear what’s going on. I use playable: https://affectivesound.com/playable

Re: Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

I keep reading comments along the line of "how many ornaments to put in".

Are we supposed to keep count, is there a budget for each tune? Put as many in as possible until the tune is completely unrecognizable then take one away?

I would highly discourage any new player in this music from thinking this way. When someone asks "how many ornaments should I put in", it’s the start of an entirely different conversation about "why have ornaments at all" and what purpose ornamentation has in tunes. I’ll say it again, ornamentation isn’t something you add like garlic/salt/arsenic to spice up a tune.

Re: Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

I’d really like to understand your viewpoint on this more - I’m thinking from my experience as a beginner.

To a beginner, you can go through a process of learning a tune as the barebones, and then later learning where you can put ornaments in. This is a common teaching method (e.g. Kevin Burke on fiddlevideos has two videos one with and one without ornaments/variations etc).

For beginners, where ornamentation is still difficult, and you don’t know where or why to do it, it seems more like, ok I can put this ornament here and it sounds good, but not here, and eventually you learn. There’s never really a problem of ‘too many ornaments’ for beginners as you lack the physical skill to do so, it’s more a case of, ‘if I add just a tiny bit of garlic here will I ruin the meal’? But really interested in the answer to the question ‘why have ornaments at all’.

Re: Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

"I would download the youtube video as an mp3 (google ‘download youtube video as mp3’) and then play it through an app that slows it down so you can hear what’s going on."

One thing to be aware of is that articulations like cuts, taps, and rolls have no inherent tempo, and may no longer be recognizable or make any sense if slowed too far. A cut for example is usually played the same way at any tempo, as a crisp "pitch-less" articulation. It can start to sound like a slur when slowed down. Slowing tunes down for analysis can still be helpful, just don’t take it too far.

Re: Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

I taught an hour long workshop a few months ago on "34 Variations on the First 6 notes of Jimmy Ward’s Jig".

It was for newer whistle players, but it’s applicable more generally.

Feel free to get it for free if you might find it useful:

https://gumroad.com/l/ejBYK

If you just want the handout, it is available here:

http://michaeleskin.com/handouts/jimmy_wards_variations.pdf

Also, on all my whistle lessons I generally teach the base tune first phrase by phrase, then go through my fully transcribed "Ornamentation ideas" version explaining what I’m doing and why.

They are all available for free/pay-what-you-want at:

https://michaeleskin.gumroad.com

Re: Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

It was once suggested to me that ornamentation on the pipes can be a way of compensating for not being able to vary the volume. It’s a way of stressing the strong beats of a bar, to guide dancers, when those beats don’t happen to land on a note like the bottom D that is naturally strong. I thought that was an interesting idea.

Re: Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

That’s not quite accurate or the whole story…

For example, when doing a long roll on G on the pipes, you can play the first note with the chanter bottom on the knee, cut and lift the chanter off the kneefor the second note in the roll, then tap as you play the third note with the chanter on the knee.

The G on the knee and the G off the knee have very different timbres and often slightly different volumes. The note played off the knee provides a bit of a swell and a perceptual swing to the rhythm because of the change in timbre and volume even if the durations the notes are played are all the same.

Re: Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

I can appreciate both sides of this ornament analysis argument and I greatly fear awakening the old debate as to whether ornaments are a natural part of the tune or an added added embellishment. However to make my point I must,… I personally don’t see ‘so-called’ ornaments as being anything separate from the tune I’m playing. To use our usual usual metaphor, to me the spices are just an integral part of the meal. They make it what it is. And okay, it’s reasonable that a beginner must learn which spices to add to what, but to my mind that tune as played by Matt Malloy is hardly a fitting thing for a beginner to analyze and learn from. Matt Malloy just spices it up like only Matt Malloy could. I can hardly tell you what he’s doing. I just listen and go ‘wow’!. Why not pick out some simple tunes, learn the ornamentation separately (so you don’t have to ask) and then over the years learn how to fit them into YOUR OWN playing? That’s the normal way to do it.

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Re: Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

There’s the long answer, which seems to be most of the discussion now.
There’s also a short answer. Creadur posted it. "Yes, I think I hear a short roll on the A crotchet (1/4-note) – followed by a G quaver (1/8-note)."
Brill!

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Re: Get Up Old Woman and Shake Yourself Ornamentation

I suspect you are right there Ben.

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