The real test in mandolin playing!

Irish Traditional music is rich in dance music such as reels, jigs, hornpipes etc., but it is felt by many musicians that the real test in performing Irish Traditional is in the airs/slow airs. In fleadh ceols, airs are in their own categories in the competitions. Slow airs or airs in general require feeling, technique, phrasing, clarity of tunes etc., just to mention some necessities in performing at fleadh competitions. The mandolin can provide beautiful sounds and techniques: in regards to airs, it can produce as lovely a sound as any other instrument. Perhaps some good examples of lovely mandolin playing straight and in harmony is when Barney McKenna and John Sheehan play the Coolin, or the playing of the Leaving of Liverpool: again great playing by the Dubliners. So, in conclusion, the mandolin deserves as much respect and admiration as other instruments especially in the slow airs/airs.

Hear, hear!

This is the Shetland band Hom Bru with the twin mandolins of Gary Peterson and Davie Henry.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z03UPpfUcI

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I’ve gotten into trouble on the Mandolin Cafe forum for this opinion but I’ll repeat it here anyway, and remember it’s just one person’s opinion.

I don’t like the sound of mandolin tremolo as a substitute for sustain in Irish airs. To my ears, when done well it sounds too much like Classical mandolin technique, and when done poorly it reminds me of Italian restaurant troubadours. There is no other instrument in the tradition that rapidly repeats a note like that. It just sounds foreign to me, like someone wandered in from a different tradition.

A good quality mandolin has at least a little sustain that can be used on slower tunes if played with sensitivity using single notes, helped with a bit of natural or artificial room reverberation. An octave mandolin has much more sustain, and it’s my personal choice when playing slower tunes.

I’m not sure any mandolin, even an octave, is up to recreating the long tones in something like Port Na Bpucai as played by Tony MacMahon, so personally I don’t even try that kind of thing on mandolin. It’s what pipes, flutes, fiddles, and accordions are made for. Again, just my opinion and no offense to anyone who loves mandolin tremolo.

This is an example of what I mean about using the longer sustain of an octave mandolin (in this case a bouzouki) for an air, the first part of The Wounded Hussar by Sylvain Barou and Ronan Pellen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vth5TpKdWk

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Before you wrote that, Conical bore, I was going to say that the real test is maintaining/sustaining what are supposed to be long notes, and if your strings won’t ring for long enough, then tremolo is what you have to do. Without any tremolo, tunes on mandolin can sound very blunt and spiky, so I guess it’s all a compromise, but also thinking of the old adage of “less is more”, so don’t overdo it!
I only played mandolin for a couple of years, so never really mastered tremolo anyway: went back to my accordion where bellows control determines how long I can hold a note! (Or sustain pedal on piano.)
P.S. enjoyed both of the tracks posted above tho’ Miss Rowan Davies does sound strange with tremolo when you’re not used to it!

Of course I’m the other one, besides conical bore, who’s been vocal about it on the mndln cafe - whose opinion here I agree with - aside from, “There is no other instrument in the tradition that rapidly repeats a note like that”: Hammered dulcimer is one such ‘percussive type’ instrument capable of producing a suitable tremolo. The mandolin tremolo sounds static, without dynamism and nuance. On HD the hammers can be deployed very rapidly, which affords the opportunity for dymanics - an essential element, in my opinion.

https://youtu.be/u2xXfTNaKZU

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I would tend to agree that the sound of a mandolin tremoloing away on an Irish air sounds odd.

On the other hand, the notion that “The mandolin tremolo sounds static, without dynamism and nuance” is just . . . there are no words.

Conical bore: “I don’t like the sound of mandolin tremolo as a substitute for sustain in Irish airs.”

I’m with you there. I am not averse to tremolo as an occasional embellishment, but as a ‘staple’ it overpowers the natural subtlety of tone that is needed for a slow air.

trish santer: “… if your strings won’t ring for long enough, then tremolo is what you have to do…”

It probably depends somewhat on the particular mandolin, but in general, I disagree. The sound of the mandolin is characterised by strong attack and rapid decay. If you play a note hard, it drops away quickly, but (assuming there are no set-up issues, hands damping strings etc.) continues to ring at a low level for some time. If you start by playing a note gently, you obviously have less initial volume, but neither do you have the initial steep decay. So, by just playing more quietly, you effectively have more sustain. Granted, this may not work in a noisy pub, but to an attentitve audience or on a recording, it does.

I am not against tremolo-style playing per se, but it is just another style of playing altogether.

>"I would tend to agree that the sound of a mandolin tremoloing away on an Irish air sounds odd.

On the other hand, the notion that “The mandolin tremolo sounds static, without dynamism and nuance” is just … there are no words."

Hmm, well, could you use words to say what you find “odd” about it?

Clarifying - I’m not against mndln tremolo either (I use it) - but not deployed in this fashion on airs.

A beautiful example without tremolo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0iKIFOmr6g&ab_channel=m1n4olynn

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Nobody has mentioned that the tenor banjo, which is much more prominent in ITM than the mandolin, is also an instrument of little sustain and needs to use short rapid notes to imply a sustained note. Not normally via tremolo but by triplets which is essentially a similar thing.

I’ve got to say though that I don’t think I’ve ever really heard an air played on banjo. I’d be interested if somebody has one to post.

I do agree with all above, especially with CMO “…..by just playing more quietly, you effectively have more sustain.” I’m not an aggressive bluegrass style picker. I prefer the gentler approach anyway because to me it is sweeter and does give more sustain for my style of playing.

Having said that, I play some mando live, but in other genres, and I often record it but it has been a long time since I’ve played mando in a session. I normally play banjo in a session where my picking is of course much more aggressive ………..and you will all be happy to know I sit the airs out ;)

Sorry guys but as someone who fell in love with the mandolin through listening to The Dubliners - Barney - on vinyl, I can’t accept that there’s anything in the least bit “odd” about this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uEKfAUInVS0

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> I’ve got to say though that I don’t think I’ve ever really heard an air played on banjo. I’d be interested if somebody has one to post.

I don’t believe it’s a tenor banjo, but here’s the Pecker Dunne playing Roisin Dubh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPf8hCU93HM&ab_channel=paddybrennan

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‘… the notion that “The mandolin tremolo sounds static, without dynamism and nuance” is just … there are no words."’

If I may suggest some words: I think that depends very much on the player. But whilst I do not doubt that it is possible for tremolo to be used on mandolin in a highly expressive, dynamic and nuanced way, what it lacks, to my mind, is *space*.

@David Kennedy: Whilst Simon Mayor’s perforamce might be a little ‘chordy’* for some tastes (merely a stylistic comment and not in any way a slur on his musicianship – he is an exceptional player), it demonstrates admirably that the mandolin can be played with all the fluidity necessary for a slow air, with no need at all for tremolo to achieve sustain.

*What I mean is that his fairly elaborate harmonies draw it a little away from the traditional, melody-centred, way of playing a slow air. I feel I am listening to an *arrangement* of a slow air rather than simply to a *slow air* – but beautifully played, nevertheless.

>here’s the Pecker Dunne playing Roisin Dubh
Ta!
>it reminds me of Italian restaurant troubadours
……gone wrong;) Not to say that his playing wasn’t skillful.

In fact to me it doesn’t register as an “Air”. To me the whole feeling and sound of an air relies on the long drawn notes made by …air!

I agree with Conical Bore : “I don’t like the sound of mandolin tremolo as a substitute for sustain in Irish airs.” I even dislike it, as mandolin player as well as listener. Conical Bore is also right, I think, when he says “A good quality mandolin has at least a little sustain that can be used on slower tunes if played with sensitivity using single notes.” I would add that a few ornaments could sometimes be welcome.
This said, there are several instruments that can provide tremolo : Catty pointed out the hammered dulcimer (and its cousins like the cimbalom), but let’s add harpsichord (Scarlatti’s Sonata K. 141, etc.), classical guitar (Tarrega’s Recuerdos de la Alhambra are one of the most known examples), piano (many examples in Liszt’s, Scriabin’s and Rachmaninoff’s pieces, amongst others), xylophone, etc.
By the way, happy new Year to you all.

Well, yes but we’re talking about instruments ‘in the tradition’ as it were.

As Mick and CMO mention, ‘air’ - to my mind - implies some particular quality, rather than ‘space to fill with sound.’ Consider the long, drawn notes of the sustaining instruments on an air: typically they offer some quality, texture, shape, breath, amplitude modulation, the slightest tremolo…dynamism; the harp being left to its resonant sustain alone (which is why I prefer wire). A continuous emission of 32nd notes without these, for me, isn’t effective. Perhaps a super fast player like Thile can pull off trem - to render the ‘feel’ of air. I enjoy the examples by Simon M, et al.

< What I mean is that his fairly elaborate harmonies draw it a little away from the traditional, melody-centred, way of playing a slow air. I feel I am listening to an *arrangement* of a slow air rather than simply to a *slow air* – but beautifully played, nevertheless.>

Would you apply that same criticism to a harpist?

And I enjoy all the players too that Jim, Tirvaluk, and all are linking. I’m critiquing a technique/instrument but not intending to the folks playing, who are all sounding fine and cheery of course! Good/Best New Year to you all.

Cheeky Elf: “Would you apply that same criticism to a harpist?”

Good question… Am I, as a mandolin player, conditioned to think of the harp as more inherently ‘traditional’ than the mandolin? In a way, the harp is no less of an interloper than the mandolin, as it had all but disappeared from Irish Traditional Music by the mid 19th Century, until Derek Bell brought it back in the 1960s – around the same time that the mandolin began to gain popularity – so the ‘modern’ style of traditional harp playing is no older than mandolin playing.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that using a lot of chording for an air (and particularly that passing diminished chord!) on the mandolin seems needlessly effortful (not that Simon mayor doesn’t make it look effortless), when the melody would stand perfectly well on its own, with just the odd double stop or open string note for punctuation. The same could be said for an air played on the harp – the player can be very sparing with chords and harmony notes if they choose – although there is, I think, a subtle difference in that the harpist has two hands at their full disposal, so they can play whatever notes or chords they choose with the bass hand without affecting how the treble hand plays the melody. That said, Simon Mayor’s melody playing sounds remarkably unencumbered by whatever else he is doing – so perhaps I am merely thinking of my own inferior technique.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. 🙂

Loved the Simon Mayor clip. Thanks David Kennedy.

Shane Mulchrone is the only banjo player I know off who does something similar without much tremolo. Link here to his version of the air Cuaichín Ghleann Néifinn.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RYCOBqxvxIc

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The Shane Mulchrone track reinforces the idea that it is as much about the space beteen the notes as the notes themselves. It also demonstrates that i. when a string is played softly, we get the impression of having more sustain, as the ringing note is not eclipsed by the ‘percussive’ attack; ii. a little bit of gentle tremolo as an occasional embellishment can be nice.

Shane Mulchrone is maybe the only banjo player I’ve heard attempt a slow air so full marks for that! I take on board CMO’s theory about playing a string softly, but I do think the sustain has been enhanced by adding a lot of reverb in the recording studio, and fair play to them.

I’m a bit late to the party here but I would agree with those who have suggested that the tremolo is not the be and end all as far as slow airs and other such similar tunes are concerned.

In fact, I was even advised that it was quite a “naff” thing to do as far as traditional music was concerned by a very respected fiddler (he played a bit of mandolin too).

However it is, of course, all a matter of taste and some tunes will naturally sit better on the fiddle as opposed to mandolin and vice versa.

I’m by no means a particularly good musician on either but I tend to adopt a combination of techniques including some tremelo although not excessive and, sometimes, I’ll use triplets, additional shorter notes, adjacent ringing strings, or playing notes in a closed position and bending same. Also, various ornaments, pull offs, hammer ons and so on.

Basically, there are different styles and possibilities depending on the player. Each to his or her own, I’d say.

Ahh! (or should I say “Airhh!”) Very nice. Thank you Fionan.
And thankyou Shane Mulchrone for such articulate and tasteful playing.

Yes to both CMO & Christy although much of that ring may simply be the result of very close mic’ing to the banjo head. I would think the engineer has used a combination of mic placements as well as a nice sounding room and then a little bit of treatment afterwards.

Shane hasn’t used much in the way of tremolo at all. Subtle repeats of the note for effect but certainly not Italian restaurant style trem. Much of his technique is in his pull off’s and hammer on’s with his fretting hand which again require the gentler picking so that the padded finger intensity can better match the sharper picked note. Shane balanced this nicely I think. As Cread said, his use of space said a lot more than if he had just tremolo’d his way through.

Away from this discussion, if I’d heard this recording, I would have said it’s a great banjo piece, and I certainly like it, but it probably wouldn’t have registered to me as an Air. At least not initially. Whereas to hear an Air on the pipes you recognise it instantly. All fair play to Shane though.

And, yes, Happy New Year to all. Surely 2022 will be our year of redemption.

Mandolin is such a severely underrated instrument… Threads like this make me feel happy. Happy New Year guys.

Claiming tremolo on mandolin and banjo is “untraditional” when it’s been part of both instruments’ technique since they’ve been recorded (and likely before) …i don’t get it. Feels like it comes down to constructing boundaries to separate trad from classical technique -- and changing tastes of course.

That said, I like a more spacious approach to slow tunes too, and really like Shane’s playing. I sometimes play a little tremolo on an air or a Carolan piece, but usually just let the notes ring or decay.

One of the characteristics of the mandolin’s sound is the rapid decay after the initial attack but the purity of tone in the decay is part of the instrument’s charm. With tremolo that purity of tone is lost. If you’re using tremolo because you can’t handle the lack of sustain then surely you’d be better playing another instrument.

I don’t think I’d particularly like to hear an air played on fiddle where all the long notes were played with tremolo or on flute where all the long notes were flutter tongued. And I don’t particularly like to hear it on mandolin either.

“Feels like it comes down to constructing boundaries to separate trad from classical technique”

Don’t we also do that with other instrumental techniques, so that Irish music sounds Irish and not like something else?

Irish flute players usually avoid the breath/diaphragm vibrato used in Classical flute playing. Most don’t tongue every note the way it’s done in that genre either. Irish fiddlers usually avoid the heavy finger vibrato used in Classical playing.

I recall one open Irish session years ago in a local pub where a visitor joined in briefly, borrowing a fiddle and bow from one of the regulars. He was a member of the local amateur Classical orchestra. He knew one of our tunes well enough to join in, but with a heavy and constant vibrato that just sounded weird because you don’t hear Irish fiddlers doing that. There is even a parallel with Sean-nós singing, which is a clear and steady technique without the vibrato one hears in Classical or Pop singing.

If we avoid these Classical techniques with other instruments, it doesn’t seem that odd to me that we might avoid tremolo on mandolin as well.

benhockenberry: “Claiming tremolo on mandolin and banjo is ‘untraditional’ when it’s been part of both instruments’ technique since they’ve been recorded…”

Taking a dictionary definition of ‘traditional’, yes, of course it is absurd to say that tremolo on mandolin is ‘untraditional’ (although I don’t believe anyone has said that in this thread, anyway) – it goes back to long before the recording era, I believe. But there is an understanding in this thread that we are talking about it in the context of Irish Traditional Music (even more specifically, the playing of slow airs) – so we can safely assume that any use of the term ‘traditional’ or its derivatives is referring to Irish Traditional Music and pertininence or otherwise thereto.

Tastes will vary, of course, but there appears to be something resembling a consensus that tremolo is not best suited to slow airs – at least, that it is not the most effective way to replicate or evoke the kind of sound produced by the pipes, flute, fiddle or a singer.

Tastes will always differ but it is hard to argue that tremolo on the mandolin does not form part of Irish Traditional Music. Barney McKenna’s version of Roisin Dubh (link above) is unquestionably ITM. It may not be to everyone’s taste but in my opinion it brings a voice to this slow air which is different - and no less beautiful - than that conveyed by other instruments. Sorry to step outside the consensus but I agree with benhockenberry - boundaries can sometimes be unhelpful.

After listening to Barney McKenna’s performance, I can’t say I’m a fan. But I definitely believe the right player can bring dynamic and feeling to mandolin tremolo, as Andy Statman does in his Flatbush Waltz composition. I don’t think I’ve heard the equal of this in ITM, though I certainly have not heard everything.

In Andy’s recording, the extended tremolo section starts about 1 min 30 seconds in.

https://youtu.be/muwdHjcAhNA

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@Barry Morse – At a klezmer workshop a few years ago, I was positively encouraged by a certain klezmer luminary to be bolder with my tremolo (i.e. not to be afraid to use tremolo all the way through a tune). Since many elements of klezmer style, like Irish slow air playing, come from imitating the human voice, it begs the question, why should tremolo seem appropriate to one style and not to the other? The vocal quality strived for in Chazzanut (Jewish liturgical singing) tends to be rather different from that of Sean-nós… There’s surely enough for a PhD in this.

Andy Statman is an outstanding musician (on clarinet as well as mandolin) and can certainly bring dynamics and feeling to tremolo. I am sure he has dabbled in Irish music at some point (he was a fully-fledged Bluegrass and Oldtime player before coming to klezmer, and dipped into a few other styles along the way). It would be interesting to hear how he would choose to interpret a slow air – he certainly doesn’t *need* to use tremolo for dynamics and expression.

Having read the posts here with interest, I think it’s now time to revisit the dreaded “Session V Performance” debate.
🙂
There are many techniques you can adopt on the the mandolin for slower tunes and airs including tremelo. If it’s a solo performance or one which has been planned or rehearsed in a band or other group situation, then anything is possible and acceptable within reason. It may not necessarily be enjoyed by all listeners, of course, but that’s another matter.

However, in a session situation, the tremelo effect may be quite off putting to other players and just not “fit in”. I and most other mandolin players(probably) will often tend to adapt our own styles and techniques so as to blend in with what other musicians are doing in a session situation.
Possibly more so than some other instruments… Simon Mayor once stated in a workshop that he didn’t enjoy playing in sessions because of that reason and he found them quite limiting in that respect.
I’ve also noticed that some well known “virtuoso” guitarists don’t feel comfortable in such environments either.

All that said, I enjoy sessions but that’s probably just because I’m just a “run of the mill” player.

“However, in a session situation, the tremelo effect may be quite off putting to other players and just not ”fit in"
A point well made Johnny. The examples of tremelo that I can think of were performances where the mandolin player was leading - Barney McKenna’s being a case in point. Definitely not a session style and not one which is common in ITM but it has its place in the history of the music.