Are Garden of Daisies and Blackbird the same set dance? They are separated here and on irishtuninfo, but (aside from key signature variations), They seem to be the same thing. But I must be wrong if others haven’t picked it up
The tunes have been different for over 120 years. “O’Neill’s 1001”, published 1902 :
“The Garden Of Daisies” - # 974
“The Blackbird” - # 985
“They seem to be the same thing.” How so ?
https://youtube.com/shorts/vFmRsIJt8sc?feature=share
https://youtube.com/shorts/WxEGF9_18mI?feature=share
Don’t look the same to me.
Definitely not the same. There are more than one Blackbird with set dance structure, which one sounds like Garden of Daisies to you?
Mark, I’m puzzled by why these two tunes seem the same to you. Do you play these two tunes yourself? Are you referring to the same ones that Kenny referenced? (the ones I would assume them to be).
fwiw, i watch the two shorts videos and i get an acute case of “all irish tunes sound the same”-itis. maybe OP suffers from same. (on second listen, they are clearly different tunes. box playing and dancing sounds and looks top notch).
"Different versions
There are two very different tunes with the same title as this in Petrie No 609 & 610
# Posted by Fuxter 7 years ago."
(Referring to Garden of Daisies)
Perhaps one of the Petrie tunes is very similar to The Blackbird???
Yeah, or maybe one of them has just been misnamed somewhere.
I play both of these. If by chance, you are one of those people for whom “all irish tunes sound the same” (as per mandocello8 above), then try playing the two tunes from the dots. Then you cannot help but learn to know the difference. (Thinks to self…. "God, I can’t believe that I just suggested learning a tune from the dots!)
No need for insults. I’m just asking a forensic question … getting at the truth
Garden of Daisies:
https://youtu.be/2maNJuDf75k
Blackbird:
https://youtu.be/X_1yiNIva78
Sorry Mark. I’m not sure where you see the insult, but if it came from me I certainly never intended any. I admit that I can spot some similarity in those two recordings you posted, but I would still identify them by the names I know from years of playing them. They are different enough to be different tunes, but yeah, I appreciate how foggy it can be with this music, and as you said, your question is reasonable.
If you think those 2 recordings are of the same tune, I’m afraid I can’t do anything more to help here, and I doubt if anyone can. I’ve provided a reference to the tunes as published O’Neill’s 1001, one of the most reliable sources in Irish music, and also links to the 2 dances being performed. How much more do you want ?
They sound like different tunes to me albeit with a similar feel.
Many tunes seem to have “cousins” and some sound more closely related than others. It’s likely just due to the tradition itself and the style of music although some phrases may be copied…usually unconsciously. That happens in other music too, of course.
I wish someone had bought me a pint every time I played a part from another tune by mistake instead of the correct one for a particular tune. 🙂
RE “all irish tunes sound the same”. Well they can do and so does most music until you actually listen to it a few times and the differences and subtleties usually become more clear.
Mark, I play both tunes.
Other than both having set dance form and a few similar harmonies in places, they are very different tunes.
Do you play them?
If not, perhaps it would be a useful exercise to learn both of them. Then the differences would, I think be quite apparent.
“…a similar feel.” Well, yes, they’re both hornpipes played as set dances. Maybe this accounts for Mark’s confusion.
As for being different tunes, the melodies are significantly, substantively different. I’ve long played both tunes for dancers, both learners and top-tier competitive dancers. Even the learners can readily distinguish these two tunes, so it’s important for musicians to do the same.
Mark, maybe this will help.
Looking at the first four bars, it’s easy to see/hear the differences in both the melody line and chord accompaniment. If that’s too “busy” for you, compare just the first note of each half of each bar. They’re the same or similar only in the first half of the third bar. The fact that one bar out of four is a close match isn’t unusual—Irish dance tunes are made up of many similar building blocks arranged in different sequences. In this case, those third bars go to completely different places (note how substantively different the fourth bars are—one travels through G to resolve on D, and the other does the opposite, moving through D to resolve on G).
The Blackbird (in Dmix):
dc|B3B c2 (3BcB|AGFG AB (3cBA|d^cde dcAF|GAGF D2 DE|
Garden of Daisies (in D major):
fg|a2 af gbag|fe (3fga gfef|dcde fdec|dedc AGFG|
At any rate, if a step dancer asked you to play the Blackbird and you launched instead into Garden of Daisies, or vice versa, I daresay you’d throw the step dancer completely off. They’d be lost. Unlike with generic jigs and reels, the steps to set dances are specific to each tune. Set dances are one of the few instances where step dancers actually care to tell one melody from another. 🙂
I agree with Johnny Jay that most music in a genre you are not too familiar with does sound very similar.
“At any rate, if a step dancer asked you to play the Blackbird and you launched instead into Garden of Daisies, or vice versa, I daresay you’d throw the step dancer completely off. They’d be lost”.
You’d be lucky. They would be more likely to tear you a new one.
To be more specific, their “Dance Mom” mother would be more likely to tear you a new one.
“I agree with Johnny Jay that most music in a genre you are not too familiar with does sound very similar.”…..
While this can be true, I believe that Mark is very familiar with this genre. He’s been a member here for years, and if I am remembering correctly, once used to play sessions in Canberra years ago (King O’Malleys pub?) That’s why I am puzzled as to how he is not hearing the difference (and honestly, no disrespect intended Mark).
“To be more specific, their “Dance Mom” mother would be more likely to tear you a new one”.
Not necessarily, in Glasgow they do their own “tearing” from a very young age.
Hah, I’ve seen dance competitions like that, where the Dance Mom would hold the offender down while her diva—sorry, daughter—went at him like a badger.
I recognise both as different tunes besides being set popular set dances.
Just for the sake of talking though does anyone else think Garden of Daisies is a dance version of Sliabh Geal Cua.
Just like the Black Bird has an air version and Suisin Ban is related to Casadh an tsugain.
I’m not saying these pairs are the same but they evolved from air to set dance I think.
By the way “Dance Mom” culture is alive and well in Glasgow as I witnessed at my daughters first Feis.
Luckily the music was live (Keyboard with keyboard bass). One thing I couldn’t fault the guy on was he was steady as a metronome.
The whole thing would probably have bewildered most session musicians I know.
“I’m not saying these pairs are the same but they evolved from air to set dance I think.”…
Yeah, well that’s the evidence given in the tunes section (at least for The Blackbird). So I guess it’s feasible that they have a common ancestry.
I can see what you mean, Dunnp. Both are played on the same track in Paddy Moloney and Seán Potts’s album “Tin Whistles.”
Just to say rereading my message it sounds as if I’m being disparaging to the musician at the Feis but I was completely impressed by his ability to keep perfect time , play what was required, and play for the hours involved without fault and without pint.
It was still like a foreign world with the wigs, numbers, and pens out, marking the children
And I’ve played for these things when my sister did them in the 90s and competed a few times in local fleadhs as well but this was on another level.
They had a Santa and my daughter loved it so there’s that as well.
I will get into these in detail. Thanks for all the responses
