Explaining trad music and sessions to those who know nothing about the music

Here’s a question. What’s the best way to explain this music, and especially sessions to family and friends who insist it’s a band or that there’s money to be made in it?
I’ve tried explaining it’s just good melodic music that has a rich tradition behind it but that never seems to fully click for people.
Sure lots of you out there have had similar situations. Trying to explain why just goes beyond words for me, really, but curious what you lovely folks will come up with.

We (musicians) are our own mutual audience. Everyone else is a witness.

It’s like a drum circle, except with music.

Lovely way to put it. I’ve tried explaining why I play the music multiple different ways but nothing seems to quite do it justice. Been playing mandolin for 12 years now, and majority of that been learning trad cause I fell in love with the melodies. Some family has asked me why the session people don’t have shirts or a name etc. Also baffled a bit by me picking up a new flute and few whistles when I’m not actively using music to make money. Any time I go to the park to play always blows my mind how many people seem just amazed at live music for free. Are We that far in the pit as a society that simple enjoyment of music need be camertialized?

Chances are, someone who needs an explanation for music (or sessions) probably isn’t going to understand it anyway.

“Talking about music is like dancing about architecture.” (Agreed, but perhaps spoken by someone who apparently wasn’t familiar with interpretive dance. 😉 )

It’s a reason to go to the pub without having to talk to people.

And yes, modern society seems to think music is made only by professionals, and the masses interact with 99% of that only through recordings, not live.

Maybe tell them sessions are like recreational sports leagues, where anyone can join an amateur team to spend their evenings and weekends chasing a ball of some sort and getting sweaty and injured, all in the name of camaraderie and good craic, not for money.

The standard description that I give people that have never experienced a session is usually something like this: “An Irish session is a gathering of people who play the traditional music of Ireland -- if you think of the music in Riverdance or you see being played in pubs in movies from Ireland, you’re in the right ballpark. A session consists of both instrumental pieces and songs, and is usually unpaid, but is also a social time, so the players may spend as much time chatting as they do playing. You can think of it like a ‘jam session’, except that pretty much all the players are playing the melody at the same time (although, there are sometimes guitars, Irish bouzoukis, and bodhrans -- the Irish frame drum -- accompanying the players). And the melodies are usually played in sets, instead of one tune at a time. This music has gained popularity in the last 50 years, and can be found being played in pubs all over the world.”

First, let’s look at the keyword: “Tradition”. Something that has been shared amongst a people and passed down through the generations. A tradition can be something as simple as a family of artists whose previous generations passed the artform down to their children; or something as complex as a national holiday inspired by events that happened centuries ago. If someone can understand what tradition is, then surely they can understand what folk music is. And that’s what it boils down to for the Session. People coming together to share a common music, facilitated by the traditional nature of that music.

Examples of musical traditions:

A kid joining the school band as he begins to take on the legacy of brass playing by his forefathers.

A church organization singing from a specific hymnal so that it’s members from anywhere will always be to sing along.

Ray Charles writing a Country Western album to share the traditional music he grew up with.

A family having a karaoke night for one of the family members birthdays every year.

The rivalry between the two schools with the best music programs in the state.

A local annual music festival to commemorate an influential person or institution.

The famous excerpt from Sir Edward Elgar’s “Pomp and Circumstance in D Major, Op. 39, No. 1” being played at graduations in the United States.

So, how would I explain what an Irish Music session is in the most basic of terms? “I play Irish music with people who play Irish music.”. It could be a friend, a peer, a rival, or a rank stranger. We know the tunes, so we can play them together. There’s no need for bureaucracy like paychecks or bands. It’s recreational, it’s fun, and it’s what musicians do; just as a ball player would play a game with their friends, or like readers would get together to talk about the books they’re reading.

I know what it’s like to sit next to rank strangers at sessions. Used to be, the smoke masked the body odor. And to think we do this for fun….

😂

Sessions are a bit of an odd beast, aren’t they. There’s an established tradition of open folk nights, but the structure is very different; the jazz sessions my granddad used to play at were a lot smaller and had much more improv. I suppose what they have in common is resembling a performance when they happen in public places, but the presence or not of an audience is irrelevant.

I know someone who plays clarinet in a community orchestra, and when they couldn’t meet up during Covid they set themselves the challenge of learning pieces in unfamiliar styles. I sent her links to some trad tunes played on flute or pipes, and offered to provide the notation if anything took her fancy. She told me she really enjoyed them, but hoped I wasn’t offended that she could only listen to this type of music for so long at a stretch. I said I wasn’t surprised – it’s music for playing, or hearing live, or dancing to. You can’t get the majesty of a Beethoven symphony into a 32-bar reel, but nor do you need to be a virtuoso to have a crack at it.

She did have a go at it, and was astonished at how long it took her to get Blarney Pilgrim to sound anything like a jig. 😆

…a vain attempt at ‘one I made earlier’ for another purpose…

https://www.facebook.com/groups/chemicsession/permalink/10152968292057765/

If I am a robot where’s my bloody perfect eyesight and facial recognition? Bastards at the factory shortchanged me boys! :P

I had a rather short-tempered discussion with someone a while back - he just could not get it into his head that not all music is a form of big business.

I feel that. Every time I play at the park I get one person or another utterly gobsmacked that a person is just sitting on a park bench enjoying some music. Makes me smile when little kids are all interested and want to know what’s going on. Why does music HAVE to be a tentacle of big business?

That’s one of the most common comments I get when I’m out busking: That they’re happy someone is just out sharing music. No stage, glamor, extravagance, ticket price, etc. Just another human and their musical instrument.

It’s quite scary, the extent to which people’s musical expectations are conditioned by it. Another manifestation is the trouble a lot of people seem to have listening to music that doesn’t have words.

And also the number who think their musical ‘career’ needs to be dictated by marketing etc.

You’re not really going to make them understand the nuances of a complex musical form and the culture which produced it in a single paragraph. My usual spiel goes something like this:

“This is dance music, mostly from Ireland, some of it is new but most of it has been around for more than a century, maybe longer. These are just melodies, not songs we sing, just melodies for dancing, and the dancing, when it happens, looks a little like tap-dancing or square-dancing. Maybe you’ve seen Irish dancing on TV, this is the music those guys dance to. Yeah, Riverdance. That was based on this. This stuff is instrumental, and there’s related forms all over North America and western Europe, but the Irish pretty much play it on the instruments you see here, plus a few others, and that’s pretty much it. Each of us might know anywheres from a couple dozen to a thousand of these separate little melodies, so we can go anywhere in the world where people play Irish music and just join in. It’s not a permanent band, we just get together and do it. We don’t use sheet music while we play together, but it isn’t improvisational or made-up or anything. We’ve already leaned the melodies we want to play. Anyone can learn to play it, you don’t have to be from Ireland, though there’s still a lot of it there.”

Play them something from “Chieftains 4”. Maybe “Lord Mayo”. If they say “Hey, that’s great, what is that?”, proceed. If not, move on.

In an echo of Gimpy’s comment, I tell them it’s like pick up basketball. You can play with any number of people, all the players know the general rules of the game, and there’s no expectation of what play will happen until it happens - no set list. However, no need for shirts and skins; everybody keeps there shirts on all the time.

I know ITM is niche in the bigger scheme of things, but I never fail to be taken aback by the depth of the ignorance (in the literal sense of the word) that the English population has towards this wellspring of culture on their doorstep. I think it probably extends to all forms of traditional culture, including England’s own. Folk music means either singer songwriters or morris men, nothing else.

Last weekend we played a private gig in a pub; much of the family who booked us had Irish or Scottish roots and were great. But as soon as we got the fiddle, concertina and banjo out, almost of of the locals upped and left. No accounting for taste, I suppose…

I remember a conversation I never had with Maura O’Connell & John Prine, in Ennis. They didn’t attempt to explain Irish music, they made stuff up, cannot remember a thing they didn’t say (that night in Ennis) but I took it all in. Good story tellers; especially together. Sometimes not explaining something is better than any explanation. It never happened but if anyone could do it, John could.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suoJ6mLVBlU

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"Charley bought some popcorn
Billy bought a car
Someone almost bought the farm
But they didn’t go that far
Things shut down at midnight
At least around here they do
’Cause we all reside down the block inside at 23 Skidoo"

This one is true. When I was at the Willie Week School of Music my instructor for tin whistle was going out to sessions every night. I know she was always up late ~ for the tunes? Something like that. I was never up that late.
She was there for those sessions, I’m sure of it. One of our last classes I knew she had seen the sunrise. What gave her away was she announced that for the day’s whistle workshop she would only be playing her flute, no whistle playing for her that morning.
Know what I mean?

As Ian Stock said … I’m my 60s, lived in Australia since the 1960s but born in Yorkshire. I’ve played music on-and-off all of my life, and always liked Australian bush music, and had an intense period 1988-1994 where I was hanging out with Bluegrass musicians and playing in an eclectic band that played everything from Americana, Irish, Swedish and Shetland tunes, Eastern European tunes - anything that we found interesting.

Everyone went in different directions, and about seven years ago I rediscovered surf music. There’s a lot of similarities between Irish music and surf - melodic, instrumental, localised initially but now international. There are great tunes and bands from all over the place that still play the music and write new stuff, but for me there was something missing. I came ‘back’ to Irish traditional music some months ago, and felt like I was coming home. Even though it’s not ‘my’ music it is remarkable to me in that it remains a living tradition that has a genuine heart. It’s not like a lot of folk music that is kept artificially alive (just like Latin) but it continues to evolve, to be played by all ages, and is passed on through interactions between generations.

I’ve joined - and been welcomed by - the local Irish session, and see myself continuing to play this infectious, complex, social folk music until I can no longer hold my banjo pick!

Stuart Peel - yes, I think you hit the nail there - it is a living thing. No need to wear silly costumes to make it, or adopt some kind of neo-arcadian lifestyle, as so often seems to be the case with the folk scene elsewhere. That makes me cringe. It is too easy to assume that everyone in Ireland lives the music, which patently isn’t so, but it still seems far more integrated into the breadth of contemporary life there than traditional arts are in most other places.

Yesterday I was watching a TG4 documentary about Matt Molloy. The overwhelming sense was here is a guy fully living in the modern world who just happens to play traditional music for a living. That does it for me.

Must admit I’m not certain that all the modern innovations are good for it though - professionalisation may have raised the technical standard but a lot of the new tunes these young professionals are writing really don’t cut it for me; not enough melody. Too influenced by guitar riffing, I think. I guess the tradition will sift through it given time… Molloy said the same.

But as a recent experience has shown me, the majority of people here in England still live in *total ignorance* of what is going on in another part of these isles. Their only knowledge is often *that scene* from Titanic. Where do you begin?

Your comment about ignorance made me laugh out loud, Ian, remembering an experiment I did before the pandemic. I asked numerous British friends when the Irish Free State was established. The 17th and 18th centuries were most popular suggestions, but there wasn’t a single vote for the 20th. Yet they’d all have had grandparents who were adults during the time the treaty was in force, so in a position to actually remember it.

Most of my family has lived in Britain since before that time. We all went through school here, but none of us can remember learning any Irish history except a brief mention of a famine. It’s hardly surprising people know so little about Irish culture, despite a good proportion of them being likely to have some Irish ancestors.

WhistlingFionn - I quite agree. I did my ‘O’ levels in 1980 and we had a History module on Ireland 1800 (ish) to 1923 (I think it was). Didn’t make a lot of sense to me back then (and it was, of course, from an English perspective - titled “The Irish Question” or some such), but some of it seems to have stuck, supported by recent reading and the attention playing the music naturally brings. Luckily we have both nationalities in our band, which makes for some good discussion. I don’t think such things are still taught, so we may be going backwards…
The other side of the coin, I suppose, is the historic English attitude that is generally pretty unaware of things elsewhere; why be interested in others when you’re brought up to believe (however wrongly) that you’re Top Dog? Still perpetuated through the media, I think - and evident through the attitude to Foreign Language speaking in general.
I grew up in the South West, but now live in East Anglia; there seems to be almost total ignorance here of life on the western side of the British Isles, let alone how it is tying into international currents. Try getting anyone around here to say they have even heard of the Lorient Festival, let alone Willy Clancy Week!!!

As others have suggested “Sometimes you see people playing darts or dominoes or other games in the pub. A music session is similar but we don’t play a game, we play tunes together.”

“So how can you just walk in and join in with people you don’t know?”
Answer: “Practice - we’ve learned the tunes”!

Spot on, trish.

I may be repeating myself, but the people who love this music and actually play it will always be outnumbered by the people who love *the idea* of playing this music but can’t be bothered to put in the work. (But I should be posting this on the thread about noodling….)

Go on, Gimpy, you know you want to!

Ian, I’m probably not listening to the same new/young players as you. So, any examples to let me hear where they are going the direction you mentioned here, “a *lot of the new tunes* these young professionals are writing really don’t cut it for me; not enough melody. Too influenced by guitar riffing.”
Thank you!

From my perspective the experience of learning, sharing, playing and appreciating Irish tunes with interested parties is all the reason I need to keep me looking for *that experience*. “Explaining trad music and sessions to those who know nothing about the music” just seems to be the total opposite of that, from my perspective.

AB…. Ben, I suspect the issue is, when you are trained to a very high level and play this music seven days a week, maybe its limitations do start to show. What’s more, the balance seems to have shifted (perhaps necessarily, given they are trying to make a living) into borrowing some of the personality hype from more commercial music. Part of that might well be writing tunes that showcase virtuosity rather than having the more innocent pleasures of the true traditional ones.

There are various degrees of course - but I think Flook were early on the trend, as maybe was John McSherry. People like Goitse, Beoga and Ulaid are there too, and quite a lot of the Scottish bands - including Breabach. More and more self-penned material. McGoldrick and friends sometimes get in on the act as well. Various ones involving Mohsen Amini too. We saw IMAR a couple of weeks ago - fantastic stage presence, tight as anything, certainly worth the money - but while not the worst offenders, the tunes still just don’t have that ‘something’. I know a number of others who agree. And if you look at their website, it’s clear to me they wannabe rock stars… 😉 They even had ‘wearable merchandise’ out the front…

I’m not saying all the music is bad - though a lot of it is rather ‘ambient’ and unmemorable. And technically a lot of it is superb. But real trad it ain’t - and on my less optimistic days, it bothers me that in due course we will replace the real thing with a plastic, music-biz-friendly facsimile of itself. Give me these https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksgTw939lss&t=831s or these https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M5KQLS2M2c&list=RD1M5KQLS2M2c&start_radio=1 any day…

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That’s why sessions are so important…

Thanks, Ian. I first heard Flook when Finnegan was with them. It’s true he is an Irish musician but I never considered Flook’s music to be Irish tunes or even played in a traditional style. I doubt any of them would think it was. I guess we are listening to some of the same young players. What do you think of Teetotaller’s ~ Kevin, Martin & Doyle? I think of them as playing in an Irish traditional style.
Cheers!

Do you mean when Mike McGoldrick was with Flook?

Brian Finnegan is a founding member and is still with the band.

I haven’t seen much of the Teetotallers but my guess is that anything with Martin Hayes in it is proper trad. McGoldrick/Doyle (plus McCusker) drop in and out; saw them a couple of months ago. I had lunch with Brian Finnegan once, and it sounded as though he felt himself to be at least ‘of’ the tradition, if not actually in it.

Put it this way, I reckon I can spot a true trad tune from a modern one and perhaps 19/20 times I won’t be wrong. And I know others who can do the same. It’s often pretty obvious. The tricky bit is pinning down when the modern tunes started. My best guess is with the Fred Morrison/ Ross Ainslie brigade in Scotland (perhaps early 2000s?) , but now it seems to have crossed the sea…

P.s. Perhaps Gordon Duncan bears some responsibility too - whose disciples those others were…. I think there is a difference between people writing traditional tunes today (as they always did) and this new variety, whose melodic lines just don’t behave in the same ways at all. There’s a nice biog of Matt Molloy on TG4 player at the moment, where he says pretty much the same thing - great modern players but their tunes do nothing for him.

Can you see why I don’t care to explain trad music and sessions to every Joe, Fred & Mary? Seriously!
To the question about the first time I heard Flook play. It was in Chico,CA on November 7th, 1999.

You could spend your whole life trying, such is the level of incomprehension. But the OP touches on a bigger issue – which is why people don’t understand in the first place.

I grew up in a home where music-making was and is normal – mostly classical. And all the skills development and exploration that goes with that. It turns out that the understanding I ended up with is light years apart from the millions whose only experience of music is passively having pre-digested commercial output pumped at them, as if it is just another mass consumer product. I find it depressing how much coverage the latter receives vis a vis *all* other types of music. Personally, I also struggle with a lot of the sensationalism and extreme imagery associated with popular music; I’m not convinced it is benign. And I find that those used only to that diet are actually far less catholic in their tastes than so-called “serious” musicians. There’s a connection…

Both from personal experience and as an educator, I believe that musical activity is hugely important. I’ve also seen how people’s understanding of it changes profoundly (no matter what their genre) when they shift from being consumers to producers. As a failed classical musician, I appreciate that trad music (not just ITM) offers remarkable opportunities for achievable, rewarding participation; that was its original purpose!

Hence I do believe that there is some value in trying to communicate these things, even if it is distressing at how tough a job it is. Just recently I’ve had the challenge of conveying the character of this music to someone who is a competent musician, but who has never encountered it before, having spent the time in more commercial genres. Hence why it is in mind at the moment. It’s a tricky thing, explaining a mindset.

“Part of that might well be writing tunes that showcase virtuosity rather than having the more innocent pleasures of the true traditional ones.”

There may be some truth in that, although the musicians producing modern music, that we hear, tend to be the virtuosi. We don’t hear an awful lot of the average players playing any sort of music.

Much more likely is that “modern” music is primarily listening music and doesn’t have to function as dance music. Thus syncopation, pauses, tempo changes and odd bars (in terms of length or number) can occur from a musical perspective.
There is a lot more freedom of expression and composition once free from the shackles of dance.

The recent posts have mentioned some of the younger bands (mostly not so young now) and the newer styles of music.

Personally, I have mixed feelings and only partly agree with some of the comments above.

For me, Braebach are an excellent band and have just the right balance between the traditional and contemporary approach to the music. They play a good mix of traditional and new composed material and also need to be seen live. They are a very warm and easy going outfit on stage too.

As for the Fred Morrisons/Ross Ainslies, I like them too.
While energetic, they also offer a nice mixture between the old and new.
Moshen Amini is an excellent musician too although I prefer him in Imar than in Talisk. The latter is just a bit too far removed from the tradition for me.
Flook, of course, have always been a great band too and they have been around even longer.

All of the above have performed, recorded etc lots of less frenetic music than you might imagine and even traditional tunes and songs. Also, a great deal of the newer music is still fairly accessible whether it’s strictly traditional of not. They are, of course, also capable playing “fast and furiously” and composing some quite obscure and experimenal music too.

It would be difficult to argue that everything these players do is part of the tradition or even likely to be in the long term.
However, I think many sessions have become a bit “skewed” these days as many younger players just try to emulate their heroes by insisting on including too much of the modern repertoire. While many of the better tunes including even those which deviate from the norm a little will stand the test of time, they shouldn’t be allowed to displace the more traditional/standard part of our repertoire altogether.
Also, a session is or should be a communal musical gathering and not an excuse to “show off” nor exclude. However, the temptation seems to be to play most of these newer tunes at a fast and furious rate just as the original musicians have done. However, I’d suggest that if a tune is good enough, it can surely be adapted or played at a more friendly pace to suit the average session.

I never imagined I’d spark this level of discussion for my question. Thanks for all of the insight!
I’ve enjoyed and played this music for 12 years now, and I can’t say how much having it back and having a session to go to has added to my overall enjoyment of life. I live with a different side of my family now, and while they are supportive of my music, they don’t fully understand it, and every time I have tried to explain I can’t really find the words. My Grandpa continually refers to it as a band, and it’s already a bit tricky to communicate with him cause He’s a bit deaf and I’ve paralized vocal chords. Since I’ve picked up flute again, I think they can see how I’m just relearning tunes I play on mandolin on multiple different instruments, as well as picking up new ones on flute. He actually said once to me “Do you really think you’re going to get good at music practicing in your room”, as part of a larger discussion on what I’m doing with my life, and honestly caught me flat footed because I’ve never professed to want to make money with my music. Teach music? Sure, I’d love to do that, but for some reason that requires the same type of degree you would to teach it in a school, which seems rediculous to me. I’ve always viewed music, spirituality, etc as a very personal thing. You can teach a person the music theory, but they themselves actually need to practice.
I’ve gone up to a park near me to play and practice, sometimes even work on new tunes and I’m baffled and amazed by the mindset I see. I get a lot of people that say this music sounds midaevil, and how beautiful it is. It honestly feels like some people get into a box of music being strictly a professional thing, rather than a trade and hobby you practice and enjoy for a lifetime. The amount of people I hear that say “Oh I tried learning guitar once but it never clicked” then they give it up. I understand that If it were easy, everybody would do it, but why in the world has pop music and the radio become the default for many, rather than active participation?

I’ll play devil’s advocate, and ask if it’s really true that music tends to be regarded mostly as a professional thing, and pop music and radio have become the default for many?

Perhaps it’s more true at some stages of life than others. Some young people who weren’t brought up in a musical household will decide to make music anyway, but there will be others who lack opportunity, confidence, money, or whatever, and yet others who try it and don’t like it.

But it won’t necessarily be the same their whole lives. Most will probably have been involved in communal music-making at school, some will carry on doing it, and others will stop but then rediscover it. From the mid-teens to the late 40s and beyond, there can be heavy demands on people’s time that limit their choices about what they can do for the love of it. They might relinquish an instrument but still get a communal music fix from taking part in worship, singing on the bus on the way home from a sports match, doing karaoke at social events, or whatever.

I’m retired now, and am among numerous friends and peers who gave up playing music but have returned to it because now, finally, we’ve got the time. We never stopped loving it, or saw it as only a professional thing, and or stopped participating in all communal music, it’s just that work and family and other things we loved happened to win out over daily practice of an instrument.

It doesn’t explain why traditional Irish music, but nobody’s ever asked me that. If they did, I’d probably ask why they play their music, or bake cakes, or grow vegetables, or go running, or follow football, or study Italian, or campaign for a cause, or whatever it is!

Donald K and Johhny Jay, your points all well taken here. Those are all good musicians whom I enjoy going to see. I agree about Talisk - there are limits though. I think they are the only trad-derived act I’ve ever walked out of.
Balance is important - though my perception is that it increasingly tilts towards the modern stuff. The thing is, from a generalist audience’s point of view, there will come a point when people think they’re hearing traditional music and they really aren’t. It may already be here. Sessions may be the bulwark against that.

One other thing is the relationship between the music and the music maker. Self-penned music is more often copyrighted in the manner of pop music; attitudes amongst the composers to others using their tunes seem to vary a lot. Real trad tunes stand as common property which anyone can perform and interpret; modern tunes tend to be fundamentally associated with the act that created them, again in the manner of pop music - to a much greater extent than the Paddy Fahys etc of this world could or probably would have wanted. It seems to be affecting other genres to some extent too. Whether it is a good thing or not for the music is another matter.

“From a generalist audience’s point of view, there will come a point when people think they’re hearing traditional music and they really aren’t.” I agree 100% but that’s always been true, has it not, Ian?

Sorry, I must protest. I don’t care any more about the feelings of traditionalists vs. modernists. I consider that thread of thought to be prejudiced. Disciples of Duncan ~ as if… Like it’s a cult to be influenced by a tune about a furry ferret (with tongue in cheek)? Any jab at adjudicators is traditional, period.

There is no genre I would call *trad-derived*. It’s certainly not why I listen to Flook. Their music may have been intended as an homage to established trad styles, an experiment in fusion/world music composition, w/a dash of percussive self-expression. Yet it is from a group which loves making music with some of their favourite cohorts [like all the great sessions]. I would say the same about Sharon Shannon and Alan Connor, Desi Wilkinson & McGoldrick, Moving Hearts, Martin, Caoimhín and Dennis, etc.

I don’t draw a line separating tradition from modern. YMMV.

I find that explaining ITM or Scottish Trad Music to anyone other than those who I’m playing it with is very much like describing the benefits/intricacies of my guitar pedalboard to anyone, in general.
It invokes the MEGO principle, (My Eyes Glaze Over).
For example:
Shortly after beginning your description, look closely at the beneficiary of your genius and decide whether to continue, or simply cease, change the subject, and get another beer.
Should you decide to continue, having observed MEGO, rest assured, your place in purgatory will be reserved.

That’s just oversimplifying, LastPosted. But laughable. 😀

Ben, I’m not sure why you think this. I assume the reason people flock to the west of Ireland is that they believe they’re going to hear something “authentic” – for whatever reason they deem that to be important; there could be many.

But if “authentic” *is* important, then they should not be deceived. People think they are hearing genuine ITM when they go to a Riverdance show; they are at least in part mistaken. Does it matter? No, if they just want a good night out; Yes, in the sense of musical and cultural honesty. Something traditional cannot be confected overnight. If ‘tradition’ matters, then it can’t just be made up on the hoof – that is a contradiction in terms. Especially when the two are not the same sound. I think it also matters in respect to any cultural legacy: it should not be a lie; that is when you start re-writing history.

‘Trad-derived’ is not a new genre; all I mean is music that (sometimes) follows the trad structures, uses trad instruments and is often played by trad musicians – but which is still not strictly trad in nature. Of course the whole thing is highly fuzzy; my only criterion is how it sounds – and personally, I always find that tunes genuinely in the tradition have a melodic character and appeal that some of those others (intentionally or otherwise) don’t. But no one is telling you what to think.

But does it matter? In terms of musical preferences, probably not; in terms of ITM as a cultural artefact then probably yes – though I expect time will ultimately sift the thing as it always has… You probably can’t prevent musical fusion in the modern era; but given that its distinctiveness is arguably one of the key qualities of ITM, then losing that may be of concern.

Sorry we are not communicating very well, Ian.

That certainly doesn’t give me much to go on, that’s for sure!

I agree with much of Ian’s posts here, but maybe I’m less concerned about bands like Flook and Talisk pulling the wool over on their audiences. If some listeners feel that’s “authentic” Irish trad music, I’d be inclined to think they haven’t listened to much Irish trad. Do Flook and Talisk market themselves as pure drop?

And if you’re after the pure drop then you’ll want to immerse yourself in the tradition, learn about the music of bygone generations, find today’s musicians who follow that approach, and you’ll develop an understanding that’s both broad and deep.

Then it’s fairly easy to have a sense of where different artists (and tunes, and ways of playing them) land on the spectrum that runs from pure drop to whatever’s at the other end (fusion, traz, trad-derived, or simply modern). Regardless of what their publicists say. (Bearing in mind that some innovative players can and do play pure drop when they want to.)

If you haven’t done your homework, you won’t recognize or appreciate the pure drop when you hear it. If you *have* done your homework, then you’ll be part of the larger community of traditional musicians who, collectively, are the arbiters of what’s pure drop and what’s not.

I intensely dislike the term “pure drop.” The Chirftains and the Bothy Band are by no stretch pure drop, but they are major beyond measure in the tradition of Irish music. The distinction I would make is music that extends the tradition as opposed to music that simply takes its inspiration from trad. Of course, some will argue which is which. The difference between me and them is that only one of us cares.

I tend to think bands like Talisk are doing something right, given the size of their audiences. Their music may not be to everyone’s taste, especially for those who have strong opinions on what constitutes “trad”, but I think you’ll find that the band members’ trad credentials are pretty sound.

As far as I know, there is no law that says that, if you have a “trad” background, you have to be as “pure drop” as possible (whatever “pure drop” actually means).
Surely far more important is to play music that reflects your personality and floats your boat. If you are passionate about your music there is surely a better chance your audience will be passionate about it too.

The vast majority of the audience out there aren’t interested in whether it’s “trad” or not. They just want to enjoy the music.

DonaldK…. what Talisk etc are getting right is learning how to use the marketing media in the way commercial music always has. They probably learned that on their trad degree courses - and why not? I am not questioning their credentials for a moment, nor their validity. They are appealing to a new and probably younger segment …. in the way The Bothies did. Except that they may have crossed a rubicon in writing their own material, I don’t know. Maybe they will pull new people in, maybe they will deceive, I don’t know that either.

What I do know is that 99 point something percent of the listening public out there have never heard of pure drop (nice phrase or not!). But if they think that Talisk are trad (and it’s never pointed out that they are *not*…) then we are still at risk from cultural amnesia! For those to whom that matters…

“As far as I know, there is no law that says that, if you have a “trad” background, you have to be as “pure drop” as possible (whatever “pure drop” actually means).”

Not that it matters a bit, but I happen to like Paul Brady’s pop albums more than his trad work.

“Of course the whole thing is highly fuzzy; my only criterion is how it sounds – and personally, I always find that tunes genuinely in the tradition have a melodic character and appeal that some of those others (intentionally or otherwise) don’t.”

Ian, I’m with you on the gist of what you posted in the quote above. I think if there is one thing I hope to clear up in these muddy waters it would be to reiterate something I have been saying about Flook ever since they played locally (about 24 years ago). I’ll do this by answering the question above asking if they are marketing their band as pure drop traditional. My answer: No they are not and the members probably would not want Flook’s music to be considered as such.

I fail to see how writing music is somehow non-traditional ~“may have crossed a rubicon in writing their own material.” I say tradition will ‘never stop’ writing it’s own material.

Just to be clear, in my previous post I wasn’t making value judgments about whether the pure drop is better than other approaches to this music. I know my own tastes, but that’s all they are—my own tastes. Other people like other stuff.

Incidentally, the “pure drop” has long been used in Ireland and elsewhere to denote un-cut whiskey or poitin. I first heard the term applied to trad music in the 1970s from an old Co. Galway fiddler. Tony MacMahon did the same for his RTE show on trad music that first aired in the late 1980s, if I recall correctly.

Ian had used the word “authentic,” but I find the music of Flook, Talisk, the Chieftains, Lunasa, etc., no less authentic than that of Junior Crehan, Micho Russell, Johnny Doran, or Willie Clancy. The more recent styles are just different, but no less true to themselves.

For me and the people I session with, the “pure drop” is convenient shorthand for one end of the trad music spectrum. It’s usually said with obvious respect for the un-cut traditional sound and repertoire, but it implies no disrespect to other ways of playing this (or related) music. (I tend not to hang around people who pit one approach to music against another. That says more about them than about any music they look down on.)

FWIW, I have a hard time believing that Brian Finnegan, Mohsen Amini, or Ross Ainslie are trying to “deceive” anyone.

And if “authenticity” is your primary litmus test, then you’ll likely be happier skipping the concert hall in favor of having tunes in someone’s kitchen.

Good post there , gimpy. Brian and Mohsen and many others can play so-called “pure drop” at any time they choose to do so. It’s just not what they do on stage to make a living as professional musicians.
Sharon Shannon often gets criticised by the same criteria.
It should be borne in mind that Mohsen was third in the All-Ireland Senior concertina competition a few years back, I’m 100% certain he didn’t play then like he does in “Talisk”. He’s a very competent whistle player too.
Just out of curiousity, I hunted out a Fleadh programme from 1982. “Slow Airs - concert flute age 12-15” had Brian Finnegan [ competing against 13 others including Seamus Egan and Deirdre Havlin ].
You don’t get much more “pure drop” than competing at Fleadhs, and probably especially in the slow air section.
I am of the same mind as your first paragraph, too.

I believe Mohsen is now the only original member of Talisk and he is, reportedly mainly self taught. So, the reference to “trad degree courses” isn’t that relevant here. Also, as far as I’m aware, the syllabus seems to be very “traditional”(whatever that means) on these courses, judging by the choice of tutors etc. However, musicians will always want to do their own thing and push boundaries. It’s inevitable that many will try out other projects.

As I said, I like much of Mohsen’s work but I’m just not that keen on Talisk’s repertoire. I agree that if you are at a live gig, they can sound quite exciting and energetic and obviously appeal to a younger crowd who like to move around. However, it’s not the kind of music I want to sit down and listen to at home or even when travelling etc. Nor do I have the urge to seek out and learn the music. For a start, it just doesn’t sound accessible to the likes of me. It’s got a very definite “Don’t try this at home” feel about it. 🙂

Dick Gaughan once said(In a Celtic Connections talk), that he didn’t like labelling or categorising the music. He stated that it didn’t matter if the music was really “folk”, “trad”, whatever. Or even if it was good or bad. The only thing that mattered was whether you liked it or not. There’s a lot of good sense in that.

Also, it’s not for me to say what should or shouldn’t get played at sessions either, of course. I know what I like and, for me, much of what gets performed at live gigs doesn’t really suit an informal session situation. At least, not in quite the same form. However, there’s also a place for newer, modern tunes too.
As has been suggested before, if one session isn’t to your liking(there are many like that), then it’s a case of looking for one that you like.

From Liam O‘Flynn’s notes on Séamus Ennis’s ’The Pure Drop’ album (1973):

‘I made my own way up on tin whistle and at the age of twelve got my first practice chanter, but until meeting Séamus and hearing him play I never realised that the field of piping could be so fast and comprehensively embraced by the ability of the old pipers. When I hear Séamus I am listening to the specialised playing of the old pipers, as distinct from a rendering on a woodwind instrument, and his selection here is for the most part from the repertoire of his father, who, he tells me, played to him in his cradle, the above title (The Pure Drop) covers a multitude!’

I’ve long thought that ‘so fast’ should actually read ‘so vast’.

John Doherty had a similar reverence for the past and, of course, tried to emulate the sound of the pipes in his playing (often very successfully). Like Séamus, John had a wealth of stories about times of yore.

I’m not sure why people seem to think I’m criticising certain musicians, their abilities, or their right to exist and play what they want. I’m not.

Nor am I suggesting that they are somehow wilfully misrepresenting themselves or otherwise trying to deceive people. I don’t doubt that they are able to play trad – and my first point said that it is probably quite understandable that they found the need/wish to branch out. A professional career is a very long time to spend just playing Cooley’s. It is probably a good thing, too, if those degree courses teach the multitudes now on them the skills they need to survive in a precarious field.

However, I still think I see a difference between the music that they are writing and ‘traditional traditional’ music. I’m not knowledgeable enough to say precisely what it is, or whether there is a common enough thread for it to be considered a trend in its own right; all I know is that a lot of these new tunes don’t seem to obey the rules of the older stuff. They often don’t develop or resolve in the ways I expect, and they simply don’t contain the identifiable, pleasing, memorable melodies of the older stuff. The relationships between the motifs are different. They mostly don’t make me want to grab an instrument and play them, even if I could; I get the same experience when I see the dots. I suspect some of it is moving in the direction of jazz grooves. That’s not a criticism either, but conventional ‘trad’ it ain’t. I know plenty of others who have the same experience – and that Matt Molloy programme (first aired 2019) makes me feel we are in good company!

I think any confusion probably lies in the collective (un?) consciousness. A lot of these groups are implicitly *billed* as trad or “folk” (different thing entirely), at least here in England, and I’ve sat in audiences with people who did not realise that there had not been a single authentically traditional tune in the set for the last half hour. I wonder whether the ‘home’ audiences are any different – let alone those out there in the wider world.

It need not detract from whether people have a good time. But if they go away thinking they know what ‘real’ Scottish or Irish traditional music is as a result, then they have been misled, because the character of what they heard is often not at all the same. And if over the years that effect accumulates, we will end up with nobody any longer knowing what the real old stuff sound(ed) like. That IMO would be a great shame, both for those tunes themselves, and for the loss of cultural consciousness that I believe it would represent. As I said, in effect the replacement of History with a manufactured facsimile of itself tweaked to meet modern ears and consumer expectations.

That to me is diametrically opposite to what this music as really about. At very least the new stuff needs to stand the long test of time before it can be described as “traditional Scottish/Irish”. If it disenfranchises players in the process (I’ve given up trying to play Pressed for Time), IMO it won’t deserve to.

Johnny Jay
“As has been suggested before, if one session isn’t to your liking(there are many like that), then it’s a case of looking for one that you like.”

There speaks the voice of one who apparently lives in an area where there exists meaningful choice!!!

Collective unconsciousness extends into many areas of life.

There are millions of people in the USA who consider “The Olive Garden” an Italian restaurant. 🙂

The only time I’m concerned about the collective unconsciousness regarding traditional Irish music is when it directly effects the sessions I play in, and for the most part it has been a non-issue.

Sure, we get the occasional whistle player who only plays Flook or other traditional-adjacent tunes, or a knowledgeable punter requesting a modern set, and we do our best to accommodate them, but that’s happened maybe once or twice in 20+ years.

Now, if was an Irish citizen, and in an academic or government organization trying to preserve the musical tradition, I’d absolutely have a very different perspective on the collective unconsciousness.

I hope that the music we play as enthusiasts in public sessions does help provide those who listen with some new distinctions about the music that perhaps they didn’t have before, but that’s way down the list of priorities when I play in a session.

Oh woe is me! People having fun and providing fun for others using the same instruments that some of the greats of “this” music used. Some writing tunes in the same time signatures and keys of the good stuff! Even worse, some using illegal time signatures. Some are even selling t-shirts! The end of “the” music is nigh - same as it ever was.

As best I can tell, Ian, your complaint is not with the modern music itself* but with how it’s marketed. I would guess that in some cases, the musicians may be to blame, but more often it’s the recording label or the performance venue and their PR people.

*Your main complaints with more recent music seem to be that it lacks the qualities that make the old tunes what they are, and that some of it is beyond the technical competencies of the average trad session musician.

And that all of this, over time, might dilute or adulterate Irish traditional music. Mostly due to the ignorance of much of the listening audience.

Personally, I’m too old to worry about mending the ignorance of such a vast segment of society. I’d rather spend my time and energy playing tunes with people who’ve been living in the tradition a good while, and encourage youngsters who are eager to do the same. That’s how you keep it alive and well.

To return to the OP, you can certainly explain trad music to people, but that doesn’t mean you should expect them to understand.

“There speaks the voice of one who apparently lives in an area where there exists meaningful choice!!!”

Ian, there’s “choice” and there’s “meaningful choice”.

In the Edinburgh area, there’s plenty going on and I know there is in Glasgow too.
It’s a lot more fragmented and specialised though and, sometimes, one is actually better off in some of the smaller rural areas even if you have to make do with more of a “mix”… e.g. listen to the odd song and/or the local “Bob Dylan” as long as “the tunes” part of the session is fine.
🙂
That’s not to say there aren’t good tune sessions here too, of course, but finding something that “ticks all the boxes” isn’t quite as easy as one might think considering how much is going on.

You’re about right there, Gimpy. I tend not to like things that need to be pushed at people by marketing types, no matter what they are. I am sentient enough to know what I want/need and to know where to get it - and I like to think most other people are too, when freed from the pressure of relentless advertising.

I like lots of types music; the ones I dislike are, I think, where style triumphs over substance, and I would hate to see trad music going the same way. I like trad because it is participative, achieveable and on a very human scale. I wouldn’t want it to lose those qualities either.

No, it’s not uppermost in my mind during a session either, but I am aware, in the background, that to varying degrees we are custodians of something bigger and older than our own inclinations. Totally agree about how to keep it alive, and luckily there do seem to be many youngsters who are still happy to be playing proper trad.

Johnny Jay, happy he the man who does not realise what riches he has on his doorstep(???) I’ve played in Edinburgh and Glasgow from time to time and know the session a little. It’s very different from places where it is a matter of one session versus none - or just none at all 🙂

What gimpy & Kenny said.

“Sure lots of you out there have had similar situations. Trying to explain why just goes beyond words for me, really, but curious what you lovely folks will come up with.”

BB, for me it depends on the person I’m having this conversation with. Typically it’s with someone who has experience with music, so at least we have that much in common. If they are good at listening, curious about what’s unfamiliar and willing to alter part of their “go to” box of thinking about things musical it’s a good starting point. Short of at least some of those traits I doubt my explanations will move them (other type persons) much closer to comprehending Irish sessions and the tunes.

So, words have worked in certain situations but it always comes down to how the other person is receiving the information.

Yeah. I’m talking mostly to my family who are all nonmusicians who don’t really get it/call it a band. I’ve tried explaining what I know of the tradition behind it/the shared experience of just showing up making music and sharing good tunes and mixing up new sets and such.
Was honestly just curious what you lot would come up with, and I’m glad I did, turned into a lovely discussion with lots of ideas for the future. I’m beyond happy to have music back in my life and finally being able to enjoy all of my instruments and tunes again.

A group of people who get together to play a certain type of tunes. They may also be/become friends. There may be beer/coffee. There may or may not be other people interested enough to listen to said tunes. What more can I say?

It’s a term that might provoke acrimony here but for explaining my involvement to *other people* who have difficulty comprehending I just say that it’s a hobby.

Some people go to the pub to play darts and also practice at home, some people get together to look under the bonnets/hoods of each others cars, some people swop garden plants. Some people play tunes. Some people have a hobby that pays for itself in some way, some don’t. Some have hobbies that other people do for a living.

Now, some people here may find describing trad music as a mere hobby as demeaning. But others might feel the same way about darts, cars, or gardening, etcetera.

What’s the fuss?

That’s basically all it is for most of us, David. It’s something we enjoy doing in our spare time although we may still take the music very seriously and, possibly, even more so in other situations. Even the full time professional musicans are still relaxing in their spare time when they attend sessions.

I suppose that you could argue that paid session leaders and the like may regard it as a job and some sessions will be comprised of paid musicians and the line between a session and a gig can sometimes become blurred. That’s another topic that we’ve discussed here countless times, of course.

Actually, hobbies are taken very seriously by many people regardless of what they might be. Even simple pub games like darts and dominoes. There are leagues, organising committees and the like. Woe betide anyone who disturbs a darts or dominoes game or doesn’t follow the rules. Your average pub session is a very laid back easy going affair by comparison.
The local bowling club is an even more serious affair for the members there, even although everything seems benign and friendly if you are a travelling folkie/trad musician just making use of the bar for a session venue during a festival etc. There are, of course, countless other pursuits which could be described as hobbies but are taken very seriously by the members and participants involved.

So, referring to session participation as “just a hobby” shouldn’t provoke acrimony at all. 🙂

I don’t think I’ve ever described what I do with music as a hobby but I don’t have a problem with that term. It’s related to the word amateur, where the etymology means doing something because you love it. I’ve occasionally made money performing at weddings, St. Patrick’s Day shows and other small-time gigs, but I would still refer to myself as an amateur in the general sense. I’ve never tried to make a living at it.

When describing what I do with music to a civilian (non-musician), I usually say I play Irish and Scottish traditional music with friends. That last part helps establish that I’m not a full-time professional. I’ll follow that by saying we play jigs, reels, and hornpipes on fiddles and other acoustic instruments. Most people have at least heard the word jig, with some vague relation to Ireland.

That’s about as far as you can go with the average civilian here in the USA without pointing to something like the Riverdance shows, or using the word “Celtic,” both of which can lead to the wrong impression. I don’t dance, and I don’t twirl my long hair about my shoulders while playing ethereal music in a misty meadow.

I remember when Donal Lunny had long hair & Matt Molloy had hair.

I’m rather surprised at the view that the only thing that matters is having some fun with our mates. Of course, that’s important – but to deny that we’re also part of something bigger seems…. well, given the intensity of discussion on the MB, I’m surprised to hear that’s all there is to it.

Obviously, the social aspect of ITM has always been very important, even though the setting was not always the same. People’s minds were very probably not on the higher cultural meaning of what they were doing (or maybe actually they were - I think a lot of the old guys knew they had something special…)

The cultural phenomenon of ITM, as with any other, may well be the aggregate effect of lots of people “having fun with their mates”, but that surely cannot deny that there *is* something more to it than that. I expected there to be more value placed on that point. Whatever we think we’re doing when playing music, or why we think we are doing it, the fact remains, we are also part of something bigger, even if we choose not to notice/acknowledge it.

In some way, I think we are all the custodians of something, whether important or not I don’t know – and what we individually do or think does in a small way alter the nature of the whole.

Ian, are you saying we need to explain to others, those who don’t understand trad music and sessions (the OP)
it’s important to emphasise that when in session we are custodians of the music? If you’re not referring to the OP I get how the music deserves more significance. I don’t get how that helps explain what we’re doing to the people who don’t yet comprehend the basics.

Late to the party. Some meet in pubs/cafés and speak French (or any other target language). Others play music together. Or chess. Neither is a performance.

“Having fun” matters more than anything else. If you’re not having fun, nobody is forcing you to come back.

AB - I guess the discussion wandered a bit from the OP. Fair point. Hardly the first time. I don’t really know what is important. As a lifelong teacher, you get into the habit of communicating/explaining things as clearly as you can, probably whether people want it or not…

My point was really that you cannot explain something to someone if you don’t know what it is. This music is, IMO, at risk of being diluted by a sheer quantity of a new variant bigger than anything it has had to withstand before, which thanks to being media-friendly appears to replicate quicker than the older variety. I hope those people who say that Time will be the test are correct. If it does *not* matter that these new tunes are often substantially different, I do think that in time we will be left with a situation where ITM as perceived by *whoever* chooses to perceive it, will not be what it once was. Maybe that is just the flow of time at work - but for my money the new material often lacks the quintessential character of the original that we all love so much - and therefore I do believe that it is incumbent on those who (knowingly or otherwise) help its pepetuation to be aware of what is happening, including the value of what might be being lost.

I’m not at all bothered about evangelising to people who are not in the slightest bit interested - but over the years I have had to do my share of explaining to people who were genuinely interested but not very knowledgeable, and who in many cases had not encountered it before. I like to know that I am saying the right things at times like that - and saying that it is just a modern form of ambient acoustic music does not really do it for me.