Slow MP3s For Tune Learning

Slow MP3s For Tune Learning

Lately I’ve started a web-log at:

http://www.silphium.net/blog

Since I play Irish and other dance music in a couple of sessions in NE Missouri and many of the attendees are beginners I decided to begin making available a series of MP3 files. For each tune I’ll record once at dance tempo and again at a slow tempo. My goal is to make it easier for new melody players to learn some common session tunes. I know how hard it is to remember a session-learned tune the next day!

I just started this project this afternoon so there are just two files available, fast and slow renditions of the classic Neil Gow tune The Fairy Dance. Check them out, and I’m open to tune suggestions from memners of thesession.org.

Larry

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The Amazing Slow Downer, man…

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I think this is great. I love the way free learning sources are popping up! You, Jim Dorans, Clips & Snips, all the slow sessions that post recordings… It makes me want to hug you all! ๐Ÿ™‚

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Hey, sifudave54, the Amazing Slow-downer costs money and is only available for operating systems which also cost money. A free alternative is Audacity, a sound recording and playing application which can slow down tunes while maintaining the original pitch.

Audacity can be downloaded at:

http://audacity.sourceforge.net

Versions are available for Windows, Linux, and the Mac.

Remember, software is like air; you shouldn’t have to pay for the stuff!

Larry

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And a slowed down recording is quite different from a slow recording, from a learning point of view. But I think we covered that earlier… ;)

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Hey - pobe, I’ve just downloaded "the session" logo to my phone from the link in your profile - Thanks thats Coool!!
Agee with comments about the free learning resources that are popping up, Jim, Layers and rest all desrve medals.

Mikk

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hey, here’s another source:

http://users.telenet.be/m.m/TL-sessions

no fancy site, just mp3’s and stuff …
(just started this one for our tune learning sessions)

[off-topic] btw, layer, what about all the time, effort and knowledge all these people put into software-development?
"music is like air, you shouldn’t have to pay for it"
no entry-fee for concerts? free cd-distribution?
come on, get real! [on-topic]

mm

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sorry, c-p, mikk

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Oh, and nice to hear that you like the background image. ๐Ÿ™‚

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The latest editions of Window Media Player will also slow down MP3s.
I also use Transcribe which I’d recommend. Try also to develop your ears,

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ah, john, this feature was already present in at least two earlier versions of WMP.

pobe, thanks for the GNU-link, but frankly, i’m not all that interested in the topic to read the whole essay (it would take be prob days tot do so, but i read some).
one thing struck me:
" … The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2). … ".
i agree about all the other freedoms, but not this one!
it’s like justifiing illegal copying of musi-cd’s, movie-dvd, …
you have the right tot do whatever you want with it, except for illegal copying (author’s rights?)

or do you see a difference and not an analogy with the music?

mm

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Well, I do see a difference between software and music, even if it might not be very big… Although I wouldn’t use the GPL for music, rather some creative commons license, http://creativecommons.org/

I don’t think it’s justifying illegal copies, it’s just encourages people to release free stuff. I would love to see artists release their CDs and say "Hey, I’d be glad if you paid for this, but it’s OK to give away copies for free", although I’m aware that it would dramatic changes in society to make that possible (and we don’t want to get too deep in politics here, at least I don’t). And it’s not the same thing as giving away a copy if you know you don’t have the right to.

I’m just dreaming of a world where not everything is controlled by money, I guess… Aren’t we all… ๐Ÿ™‚

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"And a slowed down recording is quite different from a slow recording, from a learning point of view. But I think we covered that earlier… ;)"

Have you and Will even actually used a proper slowdowner instead of a slowed down recording? From your comments I’d guess you haven’t .

Download Audacity (you’ll want it anyway if you intend to do any computer based home recording) and give the *change tempo* effect a try.

You may well find you can’t tell the difference between a properly slowed recording and a recording of a tune played slowly. It ain’t the same thing at all as dragging your finger on the turntable or using the slowdown tool in WMP. The digital effects revolution is now in an advanced state of affairs.

KFG

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"layer, what about all the time, effort and knowledge all these people put into software-development? "

Get real and acknowledge that Audacity exists, for free, and the people who made it put in all the time, effort and knowledge, just because they wanted to. Makes ‘em feel good, like when you play a tune.

And it allows me to work cross platform with my friends who are not yet enlightened enough to use Linux (Flame On! all you Mac users). ๐Ÿ™‚

KFG

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If someone develops something to give away from free, that’s great. If someone develops something to sell, that’s great too. But don’t confuse the two, and it’s no use taking some kind of moral high ground to justify the process of stealing someone else’s work, nor slamming someone who developed something to sell on those spurious moral high grounds.

The End.

BTW, Pobe, I hope you got Jeremy’s permission to use that image. ๐Ÿ™‚

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Yeesh…. open source versus closed source has finally reached the session. There are very distinct philosophies as well as a fairly deep history surrounding this topic. The free use and distribution of Audacity is completely copasetic with their liscence. It’s the way they want it…that’s why they host their project at sourceforge.

The open source community does not advocate the theft of copyrighted music…period. That is very important for people to know.

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"If someone develops something to give away from free, that’s great. If someone develops something to sell, that’s great too. But don’t confuse the two…"

Since I’ve been know to do both I’m not at any particular risk of that.

". . it’s no use taking some kind of moral high ground to justify the process of stealing someone else’s work…"

If someone here has done that I’ve missed it.

"…nor slamming someone who developed something to sell on those spurious moral high grounds."

Ah, well, there we might disagree a bit, but it depends on just what it is they’re developing to sell, and this isn’t the place for it. If you are so inclined ‘mon over to Slashdot, which is where I address such matters in an appropriate setting. We’ve actually had quite a few discussions over there on tradtional music and copyright law and the freeing of Woody’s This Land is Your Land actually made the headlines. There is considerable crossover between the issues of the "geek" community and the "music" community (and some of the finest baroque musicians out there are hard core geeks, going back at least to Wendy Carlos… and beyond!)

KFG

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I have a friend who believes all things that come to him are gifts sent directly from god and all things that leave his hands are gifts back to god. It’s infuriating for people who are human-ownership-oriented, but at the same time it’s incredible to watch the way all his dreams come true.

(Not relevant. I admit it.)

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Kerri, correct me if I’m wrong and I hope you werent’ being facetious, but without the religious component, isn’t that known as ‘gift economics’? I have a book that goes into that a bit and it’s pretty interesting.

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…and now back to the thread…. I’m happy people are putting up the slow mp3’s. What I think would be good for the people like Jim and Larry is if they put a paypal DONATE button on their site. If they can swing it without any remuneration that’s great, but I would sincerely give a small stipend periodically to be able to get these great online lessons. I don’t know about the rest of you who use their sites, but I sometimes feel guilty taking files and learning from them for free. I’ve learned a few Irish tunes from Jim and we’ve never even met.

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Really? You think that if someone who develops something with the purpose of selling it, they shouldn’t be slammed for it? That’s a very interesting viewpoint, Kevin, nor a particularly practical one, unless your aim is to completely re-wire and re-organize both the global society and economy.

In the meantime, I need to go make a living now…although if my employer decides not to pay me for the hours I spend working in their store with the express purpose of selling them that time, I’ll know they’ve been following this thread! ;)

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Excuse me, getting all confused there — that should of course read "You think that if someone who develops something with the purpose of selling it, they SHOULD be slammed for it?"

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"BTW, Pobe, I hope you got Jeremy’s permission to use that image."

Well… I’ll admit that actually, I don’t. I e-mailed him some time ago asking about using the logo (or something very similar to the logo) for a sticker, didn’t get any answer… This image I did for personal use, but someone thought it was cool and suggested that I’d pass it around, and I thought, "what the heck"….

But I promise you, I don’t make any money from it and the moment I get an e-mail from Jeremy stating that I can’t use the logo, I’ll remove that image. ๐Ÿ™‚

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P.s.

I’ve never asked for nor wanted any renumeration for the mp3s our tune learning session put up lo, these many years ago (no, really, we intend to update the tunes, we really do), but then I’m not the one who pays for the server space — Mike at slowplayers.org does that, out of his generosity of spirit and his interest in this stuff. For which I often thank him, as do the folks who often use all the midis, gifs and mp3s that are posted on that site.

It’s not as if I’ve ever been unsharing with tunes or information. I just think that if I *did* want to be paid for it and asked for it, then it’d be my right to do so without someone slamming me for it.

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"You think that if someone who develops something with the purpose of selling it, they SHOULD be slammed for it?"

Well… I’ll just try to keep silent about this one… ;)

"unless your aim is to completely re-wire and re-organize both the global society and economy"

Right, now THIS is exactly what I want to do. Seriously.

*I thought I promised myself to stay away from discussions like this one*

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Feel free — just remember that people tend to be people, which is why communism (in my opinion, the perfect society but only when people stop being people) keeps failing.

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How did we end up here anyway? These threads really are as confusing as real discussions. ๐Ÿ™‚

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That’s one of the things I’ve always loved about TheSession, Pobe — it’s the next best thing to actually sitting round the table. Now, when Jeremy figures out how we can actually all play tunes together… hehehe.

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"people tend to be people, that’s why communism keeps failing"

Funny, that’s the same reason capitalism keeps failing.

Mike, I didn’t know it was called anything, or that there was a book about it. I’d love to read it. (OK, I knew about the book of Tao, which is all about this mentality but obstinately refuses to give anything a name.)

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"unless your aim is to completely re-wire and re-organize both the global society and economy"
Right, now THIS is exactly what I want to do. Seriously.

When you get everyone to agree to do that, you let me know, I’ll be there with bells on. ๐Ÿ™‚ Unless you decide that you’re going to shoot the non-believers instead of the long way home, in which case watch your back or be sure to come get me first, because i’ll be gunning for you.

*snort*

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Kerri, the book is pretty dry as it’s about the economics of Open Source software. It goes into ‘gift economics’ a bit. It’s a bit of a sleeper but just in case, it’s calle "Free as in Speech and Beer." I’ll get the particulars when I get home, when I get home, if you still think you might want to look it up. My communications friends really love this stuff!

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"Unless you decide that you’re going to shoot the non-believers"

Oh, no, I’m going to hug them, so they know I’m the good guy!

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There’s such a thing as free beer?!? I’ve always paid for it one way or another, even if only with a headache the day after the session.

Pobe, *every*body always thinks they’re the good guy. LOL

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No, Mike, not interested in dry technical reading. I’m only interested in rash generalizations and timeless philosophical conundrums. ( And a ripping good murder mystery when the spirit moves me).

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Kerri, well, if you ever happen on it, breeze through it… there’s some very interesting and thought provoking stuff there. But a good lot of it will still put you to sleep. I seem to be crashing just thinking about it ๐Ÿ˜‰

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"just remember that people tend to be people, which is why communism (in my opinion, the perfect society…)

In my opinion it’s the perfect society for ants. I am not an ant. I am a human being. I like being a human being. I wouldn’t like being an ant (but then my opinion is biased by being a human being, innit?)

If there is no escape from it communism amongst human beings will always devolve to endentured servitude and even slavery. That’s why the Soviet Union had to throw up the Iron Curtain and build labor camps in Siberia. I am a freeman and abolitionist, thank you.

I’m not sure you read my post very carefully, and if you go to the high end whistle thread that popped up recently you’ll find I’m an ardent capitalist, one who, by the way, has owned his own retail store and fully expected to get paid for my goods (some of which I produced myself) and to pay my employees, and liked it that way.

I still make part of my living (such as it is) from producing goods and getting paid for them, as well as bartering my time and expertise for money, or rice, or whatever.

And if you look around carefully you’ll discover that what’s really happening is that society *is* being totally rewired as we speak and that it’s certain people (perhaps myself included, although I’m not sure about that. I’m a lousy activist and always feel I’ve made some sort of error when I find myself inclining to be one) who are *resisiting* that rewiring, not trying to do the rewiring. Your own use of the word "stealing" is evidence of that rewiring. Almost no one 50 years ago would have used it with regards to copyright infringment. It doesn’t even make sense, in the manner that dividing by zero doesn’t make sense. It is copy*right*, and violating it is a matter of rights infringement, in the same manner that search without warrant or prior restraint of speech is a rights infringement.

You do not steal someone’s right to speak, you infringe upon it. Similarly you do not steal music, you infringe upon the rights holder’s right to be the exclusive source of copies.

You *steal* a CD, perhaps from the store where you work.

"How did we end up here anyway?"

By the fact that music and "intellectual property" ( a term which has no legal standing, by the way, it’s a *metaphor* invented by the business school people, not the lawyers or legal philosophers, although part of the rewiring I speak of is the attempt by certain business interests to give the idea legal standing) is, under out current system, inextricably linked.

There’s no way to avoid the issue so long as you have any contact with music whatsoever.

Or, under the Berne Convention, so much as write a shopping list. The Berne Convention is also part of the rewiring of society.

"There’s such a thing as free beer?!?"

Certainly. It’s just grass seed that’s been mixed with water and let sit until it goes bad. It’s perfectly possible to make your own from freely collected stock (although I’m told this may not be true in Colorado), although Monsanto is working on that.

KFG

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KFG, I like your emphasis on the copy*right*. You’re absolutely right, we do misconstrew the use of the word ‘steal’ in the context of music and other intellectual property. It reminded me that people who develop their products under the open source philosophy use the term Copy*left* to refer to their distribution effort.

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Riley school posts loads of tunes (MP3’s) online. I think they have about 5 or 6 years worth of tunes up now. Both fast and slow versions of all the tunes taught each quarter.

http://rileyirishmusic.com/music.htm

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It’s worth pointing out a few salient facts about the The Session.

The site is built using PHP with a MySQL database. Both are open-source technologies. They are also free (as in beer). They cost me nothing. They also, to put it mildly, rock. The rate of development has been phenomenal.

If I had to pay for the back-end technology, The Session probably wouldn’t exist, certainly not in its current free (as in beer) state.

Back to music…

There are some great Creative Commons licences that are perfect for releasing music on the internet. Basically, it’s "some rights reserved". You can specify, for instance, that people can download and copy your music, but not for profit. Or that they can only copy with attribution.

Here’s the one I use for my band’s MP3s:

http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/2.0/deed-music

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I know this getting old but I wanted to mention, just in case people are confused as to why anyone would want to give their products away for free in the first place Probably the number one reason, where companies such as ‘Audacity’ are concerned, is to attain a piece of market share where otherwise larger monopolistic companies have too much advantage. The idea being once you have market share you can charge money for spin-off services. It’s not merely in the interest of being nice… it makes some good business sense in the end. That said…to make it relevent to this thread, I’m not sure this way of thinking is necessary in the music industry. I think, unless you’re a self produced, no-name band who wishes to climb the ladder more quickly… you give a way your cds and hope to get paying gigs. Eventually you will be able to charge for some of your products….and so on….

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"KFG, I like your emphasis on the copy*right*."

I’ve been dealing with these issues for a long, long time. Long enough to grow weary of the whole thing, but the "fight" keeps going on, and on, and on, and…

IANAL, but I do have something of a reputation as a logician and legal philosopher in some circles. Law students/Lawyers have been known to use arguing with me to strengthen their own understanding/case, and in one instance one of my arguments was actually used in a NYS Supreme Court decision regarding copyright issues.

"intellectual property"

There is, as yet, no such thing, although it seems likely there will be in the not too distant future (the DMCA and it’s spinoffs in other countries is a significant step in this direction). As if Jefferson weren’t rolling in his grave fast enough already.

KFG

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I also use mySQL as my primary databse of choice. I maintain a database for the municipality that contains over 42 tables and has a little over 2.4 million client records. My db’s speed rivals those of the big databases such as Oracle which costs in the 10’s of thousands to purchase and implement whereas mySQL cost nothing. Commercial license do cost, but they are still a nominal amount in comparison to the huge ones like Microsofts SQL server and Oracle.

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I just knew there would be an essay coming up from you, Kevin! I happen to think that communism, in the kernal of its ideals, rather than the practical form, is indeed a very good system, but doesn’t allow for people being people, ie: selfish, greedy, etc.. I don’t think ants have a system of communism, because I doubt ants talk politics. Maybe they do, who knows? But I tend to doubt it, because I tend to think human beings are silly time wasters. Look at all this thread if you want an example! *smirk*

By "steal" I was not meaning to get into some discussion about rights vs. property, physical property vs. intellectual property, and what it costs people when they don’t get them or when those rights are abrogated or whatever, nor even a discussion of whether society needs or will be or is being rewired or reorganized.

By "steal", I was thinking, for an instance, of the fact that I will shortly be given some sketches to make into embroidery files (for the home embroidery market), which I will sell for her by website, by a wonderful Irish singer who will be going to reducing her hours at her job in order to concentrate more on her singing career, and I’m going to try to help her do that by hopefully bringing in a few dollars here and there with this. And I *know*, without a doubt, someone at some point is going to steal those files, despite anything I try to do to protect them, copying them or passing them on to friends without paying for them, or whatever, and my friend will not get paid for those files, which may possibly keep her from eating or making her mortgage.

Which makes me see red, because it’s taking the food out of her mouth if someone does it. I consider that stealing. Even if trying to focus on her music means that she made that choice or whatever blether one cares to bleat. I think that those files are hers to sell if she wishes. The work that I will do to digitize them is mine to sell if I wish.

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Oh, and btw, for most of that, I was not talking directly to you, Kevin, so don’t go assuming. There were other points I was making to other people.

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I’m pretty sure the whole idea of "stealing" intangible things like cable, songs, ideas, programming languages, designs, etc. is an extended PR campaign that is finally beginning to become part of our language and collective consciousness. Like the inconvtrovertible fact that Saint Nicholas dresses up like a can of Coke to do his deliveries. People have been bugging me to take some kind of action to prevent my songs from being "stolen" since I started writing them. My attitude was "Let them. I’ll write more." When somebody broke into my house and stole the master copy of my recording session that was mixed in with all my other CDs, that was a completely different thing. It’s totally illogical to confuse the two.

A PR campaign doesn’t have to be logical though, it only has to be effective. These firms spend billions of dollars studying exactly how our psychology works so they can implant any message they choose without having to resort to logic, research, truth, or reason.

Awareness is resistance, though. It’s up to us to scrutinize them as carefully as they scrutinize us if we ever want to have a hope of ensuring our ideas are our own.

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Well, no one’s managed to convince me yet, but tell you what, I’ll just butt out and stop annoying the pig, yeah? *grin*

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๐Ÿ™‚ Interesting, one mention of "free stuff" and the topic of the original post seems to have fallen by the wayside.

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I love how these rambling threads evolve! One remark from me about free software (or was it free music) and a Slashdot-esque discussion unfolds!

Jeremy, I didn’t know thesession.org uses Mysql/PHP as the backend mechanism. Is it a package or is is a hand-programmed site? My blog (which I mentioned 48 posts ago) is a WordPress site. WordPress is another of those pesky GNU applications which are subverting the American Way and will bring free enterprise to its knees, and it also runs on Mysql and PHP.

I just recorded a couple more tunes and put them up on the site. Please forgive the rather rough Cup of Tea… my excuse is that I just learned it and haven’t fully internalized the tune. I just want some of my session mates to learn it!

Larry

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Zina, maybe if your friend markets her designs and her singing using my buddy Eric’s system (or, the "preposterous level of faith" marketing method) she’ll be able to pay her mortgage and feed herself whether or not people are using her work without paying her directly.

๐Ÿ˜‰

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"I just knew there would be an essay coming up from you, Kevin!"

Well, I’m afraid that’s what happens when you let an essayist in the door. You people should have a better immigration policy.

Oh, wait, nevermind. You let fiddlers in here.

"He was a fiddler, and consequently a rogue." — Jonathon Swift

"I happen to think that communism, in the kernal of its ideals, rather than the practical form, is indeed a very good system, but doesn’t allow for people being people…"

That’s what I said.

"But I tend to doubt it, because I tend to think human beings are silly time wasters."

If you think people are silly time wasters you should watch ants for awhile. Which also brings up the question of just what you time is "for."

"And I *know*, without a doubt, someone at some point is going to steal those files…"

No, they are going to infringe on her right to be the exclusive source for them. I was not compensated for my argument in the Supreme Court case because I exercised the "bad judgment" of publishing an *idea* in an essay. Ideas do not have legal protection. If I wished the idea to be protected I should have maintained it as a trade secret, as the "secret" formula for Coca-Cola (known to and used by thousands) has no legal protection. The simple solution to not having the work of your ideas stolen is not trade in ideas. Her orginal artwork, for instance, can only be stolen by an actual thief. My chair designs cannot be "stolen," although they can be readily copied, the chairs themselves can be. If you want one of my chairs, produced by me, you’ll have to give me money. Sorry, I choose not to sell plans.

(I do needlepoint, by the way, and "steal" many patterns I’m afraid. They have these things called books, in the library. Using them is no violation of copyright, although I’m "taking food from the mouth of" the authors. On the other hand, when you hear a song on the radio and whistle it while walking down the street you are in violation of copyright. Sucks to have long term memory).

"The work that I will do to digitize them is mine to sell if I wish."

Your time is your own as far as I’m concerned. You may do with it exactly as you wish. Not a very communist point of view, I’m afraid.

I’m curious though. How do you view the idea of people "stealing" her number?

"I was not talking directly to you, Kevin, so don’t go assuming. There were other points I was making to other people."

Ditto, so I made such assumption. Although I feel perfectly free to talk directly to you if I so wish and can’t think of any reason why I shouldn’t, nor why you shouldn’t feel free to talk directly to me, no matter who I was talking to myself. This is a roundtable. We have email for private confabs.

"I’m pretty sure the whole idea of "stealing" intangible things like cable, songs, ideas, programming languages, designs, etc. is an extended PR campaign that is finally beginning to become part of our language and collective consciousness."

Indeed, as I said, the concept of intellectual property is a *metaphor.* It is inteneded to increase understanding, however, it can be abused to manipulate understanding as well, by those who can benefit from such a thing.

Cable is a special case though. The *content* of the cable is protected by copyright, but the *service* can be legitimately stolen, and the cable itself is legitimately property which you have no right to go messing with.

With satellite broadcast things get a bit stickier.

The idea, however, of "stealing" a *potential* sale has long been held to be a legal nullity just about everywhere for centuries. You cannot steal something that "might have been." That isn’t even virtual reality, like a computer file, it’s pure fantasy; and to allow such a concept into the courts would simply make all of us live there for our entire lives. All of society would reduce to one big suit/countersuit.

KFG

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"I’ll just butt out and stop annoying the pig, yeah?"

I sing pretty good, or so I’m told. ๐Ÿ™‚

"…a Slashdot-esque discussion unfolds!"

The mark KFG has somewhat legendary status there, I’m afraid. I’ve spent the past couple months making sure my monogram was no longer competing for the first Google hit, much to the relief of the Kentucky Financial Group, I’m sure, and my own. I am not entirely comfortable with either vicious enmity nor Messianic adulation.

I see my Session profile page has caught up to it though. Maybe I’ll give you all relief and go into J.D. Salinger mode one of these days, although, as you might surmise, that really isn’t in my nature either.

KFG

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"Ditto, so I made such assumption."

Ah, bugger, I’m critical words sentences again.

That should be "made *no* such assumption".

My post editors have been sacked.

KFG

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I must say I like the smilies. I think they’re cute.

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"Of course they’ll be different."

In what way? Are you sure you could tell the difference between a "live" file and digitally manipulated one in a blind test?

I’ve found the slowed down files on Jim’s site singularly disappointing (sorry Jim) because they exemplify Will’s complaints about slowed down recorded music, but the ones I slow down myself are a different story entirely, and a roll sounds just like a roll played slowly.

There are limits to this, of course, so slowdowners don’t invalidate slow playing. You might want to listen to things even slower than that, so you could use a slowdowner on a slow recording.

KFG

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Re: Slow MP3s For Tune Learning

"Cable is a special case though. The *content* of the cable is protected by copyright,"

So watching them without paying for the privilege is an infringement on the rights of the copyright holder, correct?

"but the *service* can be legitimately stolen, [as] the cable itself is legitimately property which you have no right to go messing with."

We still aren’t talking about the physical removal of an actual thing, though. If the issue is that a cable line is private property, the violation should be called breaking and entering (or something), not theft.

(You know, just to be difficult and all.)

If you want to call the interception and rerouting of an existing signal without impacting its arrival at the intended receiver "stealing", you have to call the action where the taking of something causes it not to be in the possession of the owner any more something else.

I don’t know anything about law, but I know enough about language to know that if the law doesn’t make any distinction between these two actions, it still needs work.

(watching "it", not "them")

Re: Slow MP3s For Tune Learning

"Do the test and we’ll find out! )"

I started formulating a rough methodology and thinking of a valid means to perform it before I made my last post.

"Seriously, I do think you’ll hear the difference (if we’re talking say 10% reduction in speed)."

Seriously, I’ve already put some time into this and do not believe I could tell the difference at 25%. At 30% I can due to artifacts introduced by the process. A better algorighm could eliminate those effects.

What I find interesting though is that even at a 50% reduction, where the artifacts are glaring, I would still classify the result as extremely useful for learning, because the artifacts are in the dropout/static field, but leave the music itself otherwise intelligible.

Whereas a file simply slowed (as opposed to reduced in tempo) is unintelligible gobbldy-gook at that rate of reduction.

"The type of roll you’d play for a slow jig is not the same thing sped up that you’d play for a fast reel."

What has this got to do with slowing down the reel?

KFG

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Re: Slow MP3s For Tune Learning

I have a friend who slows down his old LPs in some incomprehensibe archaic way involving cables, turntables and amplifiers and the like. I must say, when he played me the slowed down … uh … I guess it was Kathleen Collins or maybe the Bothy Band (hard to tell at half speed)… my reaction was "Dear GOD! Listen to all that STUFF that’s going on there! There’s something fancy and complicated happening on nearly EVERY SINGLE NOTE!"

Of course, at that speed I couldn’t tell what it was, but just hearing it was enough to make me realize my ears were not getting all the information they could have been from only listening to things at full speed.

Re: Slow MP3s For Tune Learning

"I still maintain that I’ll spot the difference if you play a piece 10% slower, or slow it down by the same degree."

Ah, sorry, Mr. Precise here. That is an entirely *different* statement.

"One thing that can be said with authority until another couple of generations pass away is that slowing stuff down sure isn’t traditional. ‘.-)"

If you mean by mechanical/electronic means before the introduction of gramophone, we are in agreement. If you mean that no one ever played things slowly and thus people had to learn things entirely by listening to tunes played at top speed, we are not.

"…just hearing it was enough to make me realize my ears were not getting all the information they could have been from only listening to things at full speed."

Bingo! We have another winner.

KFG

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Re: Slow MP3s For Tune Learning

Ah, missed this one in the flurry.

"So watching them without paying for the privilege is an infringement on the rights of the copyright holder, correct?"

Ah, here we’re getting into deep waters. Copyright doesn’t protect watching TV, anymore than it protects a book from being read. Libraries are perfectly legal. Nor, as some people mistakenly believe, does it confer any rights whatsoever to the rights holder to tell people what they can do with the copyright protected material they possess.

The way the law currently stands if you need to do some sort of translation of the signal (descramble) you’re probably in violation copyright, but if you don’t, even if you have stolen the cable service, you almost certainly aren’t.

"If the issue is that a cable line is private property, the violation should be called breaking and entering (or something), not theft."

That’s why I mentioned it seperately from theft of service.

"(You know, just to be difficult and all.)"

Behavior I find simply appalling!

"If you want to call the interception and rerouting of an existing signal without impacting its arrival at the intended receiver…"

Ah, but a cable connection *does* impact the arrival at every other reciever on the local loop. It’s a shared, finite resource. We call it "bandwidth."

That’s one of the reasons I mentioned satellite broadcasts seperately.

"…you have to call the action where the taking of something causes it not to be in the possession of the owner any more something else."

Yes, this is the heart of the matter.

KFG

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Re: Slow MP3s For Tune Learning

I’m tempted to think of a new controversial topic, as I’ve enjoyed to the hilt this unexpected torrent of opinion!

Larry

Re: Slow MP3s For Tune Learning

"I’m tempted to think of a new controversial topic"

Chicken or egg?

KFG

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Re: Slow MP3s For Tune Learning

Definitely egg. In a manner of speaking.

Re: Slow MP3s For Tune Learning

Gotta be the chicken… in a manner of speaking…

Re: Slow MP3s For Tune Learning

KFG - "I’ve found the slowed down files on Jim’s site singularly disappointing (sorry Jim)" - I wonder if you mean the tunes in the audio section, which where played by me in real time, then re-played having been slowed down by 50% using the Amazing Slow Downer. That’s fair comment, and although they would be OK for me to learn a new tune, they may not suit everyone. The video clips however, showing rolls in slowed-down real time, should be a different story. Good to get feedback, though.

Jim

Re: Slow MP3s For Tune Learning

too bad my english isn’t as good as yours all …
i don’t get half of what you’re saying, KFG, though i would like to. i read the whole thread and i suppose you’re talking US-law here? or not?

danmned internet, i would love to have a discussion as this in a brown pub somewhere …
see you, i’m leaving.

mm

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Re: Slow MP3s For Tune Learning

"I wonder if you mean the tunes in the audio section, which where played by me in real time, then re-played having been slowed down by 50% using the Amazing Slow Downer."

Yes, those are the ones I’m refering to. And now I know not to use the Amazing Slow Downer and why people who have might have a poor opinion of slowed down music.

Or it may be just the degree to which you have slowed them down. With Audacity, as noted above, I do not believe I could tell the difference between an original file and a slowed down one at 25% reduction, but certainly can at 50%, although, as also noted, I find that even at 50% reduction the result is truer to the music, just a bit "grainy." You might want to give it a try. It is free as both in beer and speech, so it would only cost you your time even if you decide you don’t like it.

"The video clips however, showing rolls in slowed-down real time, should be a different story."

An entirely different story altogether, and I’d imagine an invaluable resource to the novice. When people say "just listen" I’m not sure they realize how graphical a process learning to play is at first. People in the tradition didn’t "just listen," they just listened *while watching.*

The music may be aural, but the process of producing it is entirely physical, and thus you need to employ those teaching methods for physical activities. People who have been playing for years, or decades, tend to forget this since the physical motions become simply innate to them An experiment I’ve found useful to remind such people what it’s like for a novice is to ask them to play "cross handed." Left handed if you’re a righty, and vice versa. And doing that only approaches how the true novice feels trying to manipulate a musical instrument, since they don’t even have a mental concept of what it’s supposed to feel like and what they’re supposed to do.

Novices need to be shown.

"Ok, put your finger here, now that one there, then pick the first one up…"

And I would classify your video clips as the primary resource for that necessary graphical instruction on the internet. Keep it up, despite your nay sayer.

"i suppose you’re talking US-law here? or not?"

Yes, and no. Certainly primarily US law, especially when it comes to the DMCA and certain concepts of fair use, but most of the world’s copyright law is now based on the Berne Convention (even China has signed on) which is an international treaty (which provides a basic framework underlying local interpretation), and US monetary interests are pushing very, *very* hard at the rest of the world to simply mimic our own laws. Sometimes they even "over succeed," as they have done in Austrailia (and sometimes they fail, as they have, so far, done in Taiwan and Norway).

Disney and Sony (and when we’re talking about music it is fair to think of Sony as a US company) have great power everywhere these days.

"i don’t get half of what you’re saying, KFG"

That’s ok. I’m used to that. Hardly anybody does, even Americans, who don’t typically speak English as well as I do, or even American.

The civilization (such as it ever was) is crumbling I tell you. Uphill. Both ways. In the snow. In B&W.

"danmned internet, i would love to have a discussion as this in a brown pub somewhere …"

Yeah, you’ll find me saying that a lot too. Especially to people who think I’m being harsh at times. It really is just an artifact of having to communicate by essay. I smile and laugh a lot.

I like to smile and laugh and prefer it when I can help other people do the same. A brown pub is one of the proper enviroments for that.

KFG

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Re: Slow MP3s For Tune Learning

Don’t worry, Maarten. Your English is WAY better than my Flemmish. You’re doing fine.

To quote a weatherman who got snickered at for mixing up a "v" with a "w" while hosting my mom’s kindergarten fundraiser. "So I can’t say my double-u’s, big deal. It’s only my fifth frickin’ language."

(How the hell do you spell "w" anyway?)

Re: Slow MP3s For Tune Learning

"(How the hell do you spell "w" anyway?)"

"w"

KFG

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Re: Slow MP3s For Tune Learning

dubleyoo, or dubya if you’re the President.

Re: Slow MP3s For Tune Learning

How do you spell "w"? I spell it "smirking jackass". Oh, you probably mean the letter "w". Now that is a mystery that has bothered me for many years.

Re: Slow MP3s For Tune Learning

OK, so how do you pluralize it? ws?

Re: Slow MP3s For Tune Learning

Ah, symbols are pluralized with an apostrophe and ‘s’.

Re: Slow MP3s For Tune Learning

1 entry found for double-u’s.

douยทble-u ย ย  (ย Pย )
n.

The letter w.

Wouldn’t you know, I accidentally spelled it right!

Re: Slow MP3s For Tune Learning

But, really, doesn’t it look more like a double v?

Re: Slow MP3s For Tune Learning

Not with my handwriting it doesn’t. It usually looks like saggy boobs, but we can’t very well call it that. Imagine the giggling that would ensue at spelling bees!

Re: Slow MP3s For Tune Learning

This thread is still going?! Hey, I just posted another pair of MP3 files at my blog: slow and fast versions of Sam Bartlett’s Rumblestrip.

Larry

Re: Slow MP3s For Tune Learning

"Wouldn’t you know, I accidentally spelled it right!"

Well yes, that’s another proper way to spell it.

"Ah, symbols are pluralized with an apostrophe and ‘s’."

I know it, and you know it, but I keep getting sh*te when I try to explain that to the younger spelling Nazis (and I attract spelling Nazis like flies (yes, I attract flies)) who have a bug up their behind about the difference between the plural and the possessive.

The use of the apostrophe for the plural in this case is correct because it is a contraction of "es" and not indicative of possession.

So either "wes" (which in this case would be confusing as all hell), or "w’s" would be standard (there’s actually no such thing as correct or incorrect English. Just standard and nonstandard. They do things differently in Iceland, France and with certain "traditional" or "dead" languages).

The explanation of the difference between standard and "correct" is relevant to this issue, because, as the young spelling Nazis retort to me, "The language changes, and you’re just an old fart," and they may well be right on both counts.

"Kevin - correct me if I’m wrong (go on, go on, I know you can’t resist it .’-| )"

Ah, I’ve been rumbled.

"…but are we arguing about different things? "

Seems quite likely, perhaps with a difference in teaching/learning philosophies that hasn’t been explicitly acknowledged thrown in to muddy the waters even further.

"Are you saying you can’t detect when a piece has been slowed down by 25% in terms of audio quality, playing, or both?"

What I am saying is that I do not believe I could tell, in a *blind* test, whether a particular file was created by someone playing at that tempo or playing at some other tempo and then applying a tempo change in Audacity. In such a test I would, ideally, have no idea what the audio quality of the original was. I suspect, however, that I could not detect a difference in audio quality down to about 20% to 25% or so. At 30% I believe I could differentiate on audio quality alone.

So I guess I’m further saying that by reference to the original file (thus not a blind test) I can primarily tell that the file has been manipulated by the reduction in audio quality, more than any descernable difference in the quality of the music itself (although obviously at a certain point cues in the music itself would give it away as well). This is purely annecdotal, and thus I don’t trust it at all. A methodology to test this would require being able to record an original file with exactly the same audio quality as the manipulated file.

Isolating what you’re testing for is a tricky business, and that’s one of the reasons I mention a "rough" methodolgy above. The sort of test I was thinking of couldn’t be considered rigourous, but could be what is refered to as "suggestive."

"I like the muddy sound of old tapes smashed and stuck together again with sellotape and marmalade."

You’ve been rummaging through my drawers, haven’t you? (and no comments on whether I mean American drawers or English drawers. This is a garment free discussion)

"This thread is still going?!"

I’ve been a bad boy, and iced in. Nothing to do but something productive and important, or this.

KFG

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