Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Should ITM be for Irish born only?

No, I haven’t become a nationalist or joined the Klan, it was some crazy notion going through my head.

Now if purists want to keep the tradition as it was meant to be, (never mind how they alone know how it was meant to be), should only Irish people be allowed to play? Then you could make sure nobody strayed from the straight and narrow.

Once something becomes international, well you can expect some change, but not fundamental change. England invented soccer, Brazil and others invented new ways of playing, but it is still the same game, and now England lag behind. I mean the USA didn’t win a game in the World Basketball Championship, and Cuba win all the baseball gold medals. But it is still the same game.

Likewise ITM. International now, and different nationalities give it different styles, but it is still ITM.

Or is it? Any "purists" out there want to defend their "it should be played like this" attitude and belief?

Bring it on.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

"Purists", aka "Session Police"? 🙂
Trevor

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Will, those others were not a fair trial. There was no defence lawyer.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Not to be confused with Trad-nazi
oops gotta run, Shanachie agent on the phone.
(I accidently changed the final 2 notes of a hornpipe and they loved it…thought it Bob Dylan or something ;)

Aye, always a kidder

Raymond

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

I think Will’s trying to say….

Mission Accomplished.

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

You notice there was no-one from Ireland posting on the others. And, stop winding up, you know this discussion has nothing to do about being Irish, it’s about change.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

"Stop winding up"

ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Ray, whathefeck, are you going to keep showing up in different and odd guises? *snort*

Anyway, it’s the Irish who take all the liberties with the stuff out at sessions! It’s their music, they can afford to arff it all up at will. ;)

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

This is a very dangerous topic! It should be for anyone who can enjoy, appreciate, and attempt to play it. I agree with Zina that you’re probably less likely to find purists in Ireland itself.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

If anybody’d know how dangerous, after your last post on the subject, I guess it’d be you, Johnny J! *smirk*

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

How does being Irish born isolate you from international influences in the modern age, anyway?

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Zina. Don’t forget that I can remember most of your old posts as well. *Double smirk*

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Screw that. I say we ban ITM for humans and leave it to the wee folk.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

"Bring it on."

Absodamnlutely! What right does anyone think they have to play "traditional" music they aren’t native too? That’s why I only fiddle New England style, and otherwise I stick to blues and cowboy songs (and just a touch of Art Garfunkel and Tom Lerher) played on banjo.

KFG

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

*splorf*
BB, the Klan wouldn’t have you. For which thank God fasting. ;)

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LOL — right, John, right. hehehe

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

What about "Born again Irish"?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Saw a bumper sticker the other day that made me smile:
"I was born just fine the first time."

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Always said that to be saved a man must be born again, in Belfast.

Gary, we are cavemen remember, or did you not see that thread.

And Grego, having got the child, not 20 until June, to explain ROTFL, I must ask, what can you possibly mean? I hope you are not insinuating what I think you are insinuating.

Until tonight, I thought all of Zina’s LOL was either Loyal Orange Lodge or Lots of Love. Big difference you will admit.

Think I’ll buy a bodhran and see if I can play one.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

It’s *romantic* should an awesome ITMusician be of Irish heratige, and better yet Ireland born. But that’s all it is… *romantic.*

I would say the premier fiddle player in NYC is a young lady of African American descent. If many of us saw her we’d say.."this isn’t ITM," but if she’d be white with orange hair, Ireland born we’d say…"genious."

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Would we? I dunno. I’m not exactly what you’d call Irish looking, but I once had a whole slew of Irish people at a wedding tell me that our session band sounded just like home (they were from Doolin — this is probably not as flattering as it sounds when you know they followed it up with stories about drunken musicians playing as they teetered on the stone fence of the field next to their house at dawn). I don’t think they cared a jot about my Chinese American ancestry…

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

yes…we would

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I wouldn’t. At least not based solely on her appearances, as Pete D seems to be insinuating.

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P.S. What a ridiculous thread this is! Bliss’s straw man thankfully didn’t draw any whackos…er, defenders, and now Pete D’s speaking for the multitudes. Have at it, lads. I’ll be down the street playing tunes.

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

What about this though, Will?

A few years back I heard an Ireland-born ITM player, and a very good player too, say at a local Australian session of Australian-born ITM players, where everyone was playing standard ITM, (whew!) that this was actually *Australian* music. It was a non-hostile observation, but pointed to *some* difference in this person’s perception. Irish tunes, but Australian music to his ear anyway. Interesting observation.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Duij, your anecdote could mean any of the following:

1. The Irish person in question was slagging the Aussie’s, all in good fun.
2. The Irish person was a chauvinistic snob and president of the Seamus Tansey fan club whose opinion can be safely ignored.
3. The Irish person only recognized the Kesh Jig after the third time through because he’d never heard it played on a lagerphone before.
4. The Irish person perceptively noticed that the Aussie players, though they knew the notes, did not know the music—that their sense of timing, phrasing, lift, articulation, etc., was genuinely and markedly different from anything he’d heard back home.
5. The Irish person was simply agreeing with this bunch of Australians who had consciously and purposefully put their own stamp on the music.

Of course, No. 4 *is* a possibility—I’ve heard American old timey musicians rip through hornpipes like they’re hoedowns, to the point where even Boys of Bluehill or Harvest Home is unrecognizable. I’ve also heard the Boston Pops Orchestra take a stab at Led Zepplin. None of which proves that people can’t learn to play music from another country with authenticity.

Another recent thread on this site has a link to a CCE site with old 78 rpm recordings of Coleman, Killoran, Rowsome, etc. One of the recordings is of Danny Donnelly, a Donegal fiddler, with a piano backer. Donnelly plays Mullingar Races and Drowsy Maggie. Other than some slurred triplets, he doesn’t ornament—not one roll or bowed triplet. The piano, meanwhile, soars through florid runs that would make Liberace blush. It is the least traditional "Irish" sounding version of either tune I have ever heard. And it proves nothing except that Danny Donnelly played those tunes that way on a recording early in the 20th century.

Put all this in perspective: "Only German-born can play Beethoven." "White people can’t play the blues." "Mynah birds must not mimic other birds." "Only planet-born Earthlings should play Earthling music."

What a crock.

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Mmm, I think 4 is the likely possibility. I can hear that myself, there seems to me to be quite a distinct stamp on the tunes, stemming from whatever influences, but they do seem to be different to what those influences might be in another place, and time, maybe.

Two things stand out though - not all the non-Ireland born Australian players have that difference, and secondly, and starkly - very few people, it seems to me, can hear *any* difference.

I’m not saying the style isn’t pleasant - it’s kinda raw and dusty, - sort of an old old-timey - if you know what I mean. It just isn’t a sound that you hear in Ireland all that often.

I find it an interesting point of difference in ITM around the world. It doesn’t appear to be a discernible difference to most players though. The few times I’ve made the circumspect observation only seems to elicit blank looks.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Erm, Bliss. Try that Martin Hayes thing again, and see if you can draw MG into this, like a good man…

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Delusions. All delusions. Mythicizing. I’ve seen it a lot. If you are good, you can pass for an original tradition-born player, as long as you don’t reveal you are, say, from Czech Republic - that’s when they start to look for inconsistencies.

My friend can sing Hungarian folk songs and cheat Hungarians into believing that he was born in a deepest Hungarian countryside, in a family passing tradition for ages. He does not even understand it, just a bit of talent for singing and languages.

And I know plenty of Irish players who are not that good at all. Also, leprechauns do not say "Top of a morning to ya" on every corner of a stone-walled dirtroad.

I think I’m off to start another thread.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

The question is:
Is irish traditional music really so irish?
Did they invented it from scratch without any influence from anywhere?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Well what do you think all those leprechauns were doing on those corners of stone-walled dirt roads for all that time - whistlin’ dixey or something?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Our friends from the Czech Republic would be only too delighted to point out that they are the original Celts in Europe, even if their original language has been submerged by the Slavonics.
Trevor

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Where does that put English Celtic music then?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

The Purists, aka Session Police, could do worse than to visit that paragon of eclecticism, the Plume of Feathers Monday session in Bristol. The pub backs onto a deep harbour. Heh heh.
Trevor

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Duijera, in Cornwall, the last Celtic bastion in England, although many Cornish would maintain that Cornwall is, or should be, an independent entity. My Dad was of Cornish stock.
Trevor

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A paragon of paradoxes indeed.

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Ah, we crossed in the mail there!

You better watch out, Trevor, you’ll end up with an English soccer crowd or the Balmy Army roarin’ through your session. We’re pretty safe here - but not entirely!

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

"…whistlin’ dixey or something?"

Have you actually tried whistling Dixie?

If you do you might find that "Yes" is a reasonable answer.

KFG

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KFG! I thought y’d be out there somewhere - bit early though isn’t it? How the *hell* are ya anyway!

Aw geez, it’ll be good craic now, eh!

I wouldn’t pretend for a minute to be qualified to whistle dixie, not with a name like mine! What timing is it in?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Bit late to be joining this thread… but I can’t agree with Pete D that we’d think a good player ‘inauthentic’ because they were black and a ‘genius’ because they looked like a tumble-haired colleen. Surely you judge someone’s musical prowess with your ears and not your eyes? Besides which, some Irish people are black, you know…

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

"some Irish people are black, you know…"

And?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

"Surely you judge someone’s musical prowess with your ears and not your eyes?"

Most people tend to give priority to what they see.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Who are "most people"? Certainly, some casual listeners, punters etc might be impressed by what they see. I’m not even talking about a person’s appearance here but also actions, mannerisms, gimmicks etc. However, we who have a greater interest in the music than most should be able see through all that and appreciate the music/musicianship for what it is and how it sounds.
Mind you, I’m an old fashioned git who always preferred listening to the radio than watching MTV. 🙂

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Duijera, I’m just pointing out that to assume someone is Irish (or of Irish descent) only if they look stereotypically ethnically Irish, would be a misapprehension.

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Nell, what’s it mean to "look stereotypically ethnically Irish"?
Is there a "stereotypically ethnically English" "look" too?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Yeah, probably! Unfortunately, the only stereotype I can think of is the overweight, pasty but badly sunburned, ill-dressed English abroad (e.g. Costa del Sol tourist/ Football hooligan.)
The stereotype that Pete D was referring to was the white-skinned, curly red-haired type so beloved of the Irish Tourist Board.

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

You paint a grim picture, Nell - that badly sunburned, ill-dressed, etc look wouldn’t go down too well on an English Tourist Board site, I can understand that for sure.

Someone told me just the other day that they’d read a study or an article or something somewhere which extrapolated that in around 100 to 150 years on current trends, England will have a minority white population. Did you see that at all?

Will that be when English people will be ethnic?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

No, didn’t read the article, don’ t really believe it either. Normally when I hear stuff like that, it has to do with alarmist right-wing propaganda about immigration.

"Will that be when English people will be ethnic?" - I don’t understand. Are you equating ‘ethnic’ with brown-skinned? It doesn’t mean brown-skinned, or foreign. It means ‘of a people’.

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Ethnic seems to me like a word which is usually used by a majority about a minority.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Duijera, I’m really not sure what kind of bias you are implying on my part! I was referring to Pete D’s description of ‘ethnic’ or ‘genetic’ Irish appearance - white skin and red hair. He could alternatively have referred to ‘cultural’ stereotypes of Irish appearance - navvy boots, old tweed suit and cap. Either way, they are stereotypes. And yes, they exist for every culture and every people.

As for the varied uses of the word ‘ethnic’, we could get all semantical about it, I suppose. In terms of clothes and style, it generally refers to non-Western influences; Asian, African etc. But in the context of this discussion, we can surely assume that it mean ‘of a (specific) people’.
I’m starting to feel a bit weary with this topic now, time for lunch… 😏

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Then I better tell my Norwegian girlfriend to stop speaking english because it isn’t authentic english…

Oh wait, I better stop speaking english because I speak american english, not british english…

Whoops, wrong meeting… ;)

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

An uncomfortable topic for sure, Nell.

I just never hear the term "ethnically English" is all. Curious.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Of course… traditional music should not only ever be played by indigenous people but also only ever on culturally relevant instruments….

…Oh!…. but’s that’s exactly what the Nazi’s _DID_ say during WWII.

For instance, you could be arrested for playing anything other than Italian music on a mandolin (I kid you not!). They claimed it was diluting the pure strain (a bit like Arians having children with gypsies or Jews). No smilie because it’s not funny and really happened. We joke about the Session Police and the Trad Nazi’s but it really happened and in a VERY literal way!

The ITM folk better put away their Bazoukies and guitars right away. I think English folk players can get away with the Citern (it’s other name being "The English Guitar") and a case might just be made for the Lute… but what is the country of origin for the violin? Better not play that at all just in case

TTFN

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Now that we have Nigerians, Spaniards, Italians, French, German, Chinese, Portuguese, English [for 8 centuries], Romanians. Poles, etc etc living in Ireland and, undoubtedly, they will at some time procreate [have already] and their progeny will be ‘Irish Born’ surely the question is entirely moot??

I still love that scene when Father Ted goes down to ‘Chinatown’ on Craggy island and all the chinese are playing away at a set of tunes on banjos, fiddles, flutes etc. 🙂

I just love it when a Sikh guy with turban on starts a seán nós song in the back room of Johnny Joes and the ‘Irish Born’ can only look on in amusement since not only can they not sing but they can’t even understand the words in their native tongue.

Anyway - I have no disavowed my so called ‘Celtic’ roots and have bought completely into the new view that we are ‘Atlanteans’ 😛

All from Atlantea are welcome in sessions here.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

I dunno, Duijera - I hear it more these days; since the English adopted the St George cross and decided they wanted to get some national identity of their own, as opposed to ‘British’, over these last 10 years or so. (If you haven’t been in the UK lately, you might not know that the Union Jack has all but disappeared and been replaced by the St George cross.) Plus, whenever you fill in any governmental /organisational forms these days, you are asked to indicate your ethnic background, from a large array of possibilities. Usually included on the menu are ‘white Irish’, ‘white English’, ‘white other’, and a load of other options, as there would have to be, to even begin to reflect the possibilities…
OK, it really is time for my lunch now… 🙂

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I was sitting here listening to Martin Hayes and practising my old viola, when I began reading all of the above. It is most interesting.

Lee in Irish means warrior, and given my surname, I’m not really called Bliss, I think Bruce Lee was a third cousin, twice removed of mine.

Does that mean I will be a better player, although I am beginning to believe that you need to be a computer systems teacher to be a good musician.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Oh God, I called it the UK, now I’ll have started another row… sorry, ‘GB’! OK, just ‘B’! Aaargh. 😉

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Yes, Breandan, it does seem like one of the world’s great challenges to remove notions of genetics from words which describe geographical origin.

That - I think - is the basis of this thread.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Nell, the visiting soccer, etc folk wave the the St George cross around here quite conspicuously. We get the St Andrews and the Welsh Dragon as well.

Don’t worry about saying UK - many do, clearly out of habit - at least it’s not down to ‘United Counties’ eh - yet anyway!

And what! You don’t have an option for ‘celt’ on the forms? That’s a turn-up now.

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US of E, Nell. There you go. United Shires of England. That’ll be the go.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

SIR! SIR! Mr. GILL, SIR! Bodhran Bliss is playing the viola!

Trevor

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

So… Duijera… no ‘Britain’ anymore?

By the way, am I being a bit dumb, but surely there *are* connections between genetic populations and geographic populations? Historically, at least.

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Um, maybe I should say ‘genetically associated or linked’ and ‘geographically associated or linked’…

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Isn’t ‘Britain’ a fairly pre-English term? (Oh no, do we really want to go there!) What’d y’have for lunch, Nell?

"…surely there *are* connections between genetic populations and geographic populations? Historically, at least."

Not here, Nell.

But for the most part yes - historically - is that the way it’ll be though? Doesn’t English just mean born in England?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Yes - but the preumption here is that there is some sort of genetic purity about being ‘Irish Born’. I simply don’t accept that.

If there ever was such a thing as the pure Irish then presumably that would be the Tuatha De Dannann, perhaps the Picts, then the arrival of the Celts diluted this ‘pure genetic pool’ [if that ever actually happened], followed closely by the Vikings, then the Normans, the English [who are themselves a bastard nation of angles, saxons, franks, etc], the Scots, and don’t forget the French and Spanish who fought against the British in Ireland, the Armada Spaniards who were shipwrecked on the west coast of Ireland, and latterly all the various peoples of Africa, Asia and Europe..

Wherein then is this genetic link?

And even if there were such, what possible relevance can it have to how one perceives oneself or what music you choose to play?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

"Not here, Nell" in respect of non-indigenous populations anyway.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

"the presumption here is that there is some sort of genetic purity about being "Irish born" "

I’m not sure whether it’s more a wind-up than a presumption.
Doesn’t "Irish born" just mean born in Ireland?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

I’m not going to contribute in any way to the current topic as this argument is one of those perpetual ones and gets further and further away from the original question (to which my own answer is an unqualified "no").

Just want to pick Breandans brains (so to speak): did I hear correctly that many of the Armada Spanish were massacred in a spate of looting on the wrecked ships, and because the Irish on the West coast were afraid of them?

Conán

PS on the subject of Atlanteans, there was a great documentary called The Atlantean, back in the ‘80’s, which examined the theory that many of the present Irish are descended from maritime peoples such as Galicians, North Africans and so on. Did you watch it?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

"Bodhran Bliss is playing the viola!"

Holy dooley!

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Breandan, I completely agree with your analysis there, and your conclusion. I resoundingly agree that in relation to music, or any other endeavor, it has no relevance at all. I dislike the very notion of ‘genetic purity’ and think it misleading, wicked, and foolish; our human inter-relatedness is much more important than our minor groupings.
The lives and whereabouts of generations of our ancestors, though, is ‘romantically’ important to us in that it is part of our sense of history, continuity and self-identity. But that’s all it is.

Being a rather literal-minded type of person, I can’t quite agree that ‘English means born in England’ (substitute any other nationality & country at will). My mother was born in India, but she isn’t Indian. Her ancestors were probably located around Lancashire and Yorkshire for the last few thousand years, which is probably more relevant to whatever she ‘is’.

What would you ‘be’ if you were born in the International Space Station? 🙂

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

I never said…"everyone", "all" or even "most"…I said "many." Guys need to learn to read and vbe less critical.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Conán, that’s what I heard, too; I don’t think the poor old Spanish sailors got to make much of a contribution to the Irish gene pool.
E.g. Spanish Point in Co. Clare, so called because some shipwrecked Spanish were hanged there, for want of any other ideas as to what to do with them…

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Is it "literal" though, Nell?

Does "Australian means born in Australia" sound different to you than "English means born in England"?

It does seem to me quite easier for people in ‘new world’ countries to accept this, than it appears to be in ‘old world’ countries.

This apparent difficulty is what is at the root of the discomfort caused by threads like this, and others which reflect on who "owns" Irish Traditional Music. It sure seems to be an explosive topic every time it is raised, and brings out some controversial views.

"What would you ‘be’ if you were born in the International Space Station?

Now you’re onto it, Nell.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

However, most people are not blind and most people aren’t interested in ITM giving them the opportunity to critically judge without being fully informed. You know, it’s ok to recognize that prejudice exists out there.

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Too many tangents here! Help!

People were actually executed in Ireland for taking in the Spanish Armada survivors. Why would that have been then?

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"…it’s ok to recognize that prejudice exists out there."

*out there*?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

It would be quite cool to have ‘Near-Earth Orbit’ in your passport as place of birth, wouldn’t it?

Yes, Duijera, it is a very complicated subject. And you’re right that Old World and New World differ in this regard. I guess that’s to do with antiquity of lineage, in that someone (several million someones, even) might consider themselves Australian of Irish descent, whereas there’d be fewer that regard themselves as Irish of Australian descent…
I don’t know why I’ve waded so deep into this discussion - except that ‘identity’ is a subject which fascinates me…

Yes, Pete, you’re right - it’s not just OK, but necessary, to observe that prejudice exists out there. We just picked up the ball and ran with it… I don’t think anyone accused you yourself of holding that view.

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

"antiquity of lineage", Nell. I don’t know, does it cause more trouble than it’s worth?

Australians tend to think of themselves as Australian, Nell. You never hear the term "Irish Australians" here, as you hear "Irish Americans" in the US. I find that interesting. Most Australians would tend to think of that term as racist.

Why does identity fascinate you that you would wade in this far?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

I haven’t contributed to this thread as I can’t relate to the topic. What I can relate to is Celtic Festivals and Highland Games here typically having all white audiences with a few African or Latino Americans attending, some out of protest. I believe in one human race and diversity. I’m not comfortable with this but don’t know how to change the situation.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

One of my ancestors was Justiciar of the Marches at Ludlow Castle, Shropshire in the time of Henry VIII. Their ancestors fought at Agincourt. The Irish connections go back a lot further than that in their own local area. We also have French connections via Ireland, around the time of the French Revolution to Australia.

Just so you know that many of us Aussies have pretty old ‘antiquity of lineage’ as well - you might be surprised to hear - although it’s unlikely to make anyone feel particularly better.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Duijera, yes - it *definitely* causes more trouble that it’s worth. Like I said - I agree with Breandan’s analysis. Look at the recent war in Bosnia… fighting over a map that was drawn up 900 years ago, and resurrecting ancient feuds, for what?
(Hey, some of my ancestors may also have fought at Agincourt, but on the Norman side - I hope none of our antecedents sliced each other… or were yours Norsemen too?)

Maybe identity fascinates me particularly because I moved around a bit as a kid, so didn’t have a sense of geographical identity. And, being an English/Irish hybrid, grew up in Wales, as an outsider.
Or maybe I’m just curious! 🙂
Gender identity fascinates me too. And it’s nearly as controversial as this topic, too, once you get into it (at least, if you can get a big nature Vs nurture bunfight going). I think I’ll just extricate my legs from the mud and wade back to land, now…
*phew*

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

My antiquity of lineage goes back a couple million years. Apparently, I’m African.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Holy moley, can we go on and on or what? *smirk* Pete D, I think what I object to most is your use of "most of us". Are you referring to "us" as the entire human race all over the earth? Anyone who ever heard Irish music? Just the people who play Irish music all over the globe? Or just us chickens here at The Session? Because I assure you we’re probably the last to go calling anathema a non-Irish person playing Irish music.

Granted we all can indeed be way over-critical about how someone posts something, but it strikes me that on a topic that John J rightly called dangerous, it’s worth being very careful about how you choose your words. (And by the way you’ll please give everyone credit for not correcting your spelling, before you call them on being overly critical.)

Among other things, i think everyone took your point and post as meant, rather than starting to argue over who is actually the premier fiddle player in NYC. I mean, shouldn’t Patrick Orceau (French), Dana Lyn (Chinese), and a few of the others at Mona’s be mentioned?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Hiya Zina,
yes, we can indeed go on and on, especially if we’re really, *really* bored at work! 😉

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

LOL — me, I’m going to go for a walk on a grey windy day here in Denver. Then I have to keep cleaning house, it’s a pig sty. This is what I call a vacation. Work starts up again next week…

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

I’m more bored then I can think of at work.
But not bored enough to take this thread seriously.

Im surprised its actually lasting this long…The answer is "NO".

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Wow, so much for your resolution, Stefan! Didn’t last long, did you!

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Zina…I never said "most of us." I said "many of us." In my statement I was referring to the human race but the same applies for members of this org.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

I love those posts that go ‘I’m not contributing to this thread because it’s stupid’…. oops! Got ya!

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

I would think that the percentage of those who would say such a thing on this site would be much lower than the percentage of the entire human race who would say such a thing. Most of us aren’t from Ireland, you see. Hey, Jeremy! Do we have a breakdown of geographical location for members?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Shut up Kerri!!!!!! - This was so painful I had to..

Who wrote that Nell?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

LOL — of course the answer is "no", Stefan! So now we’re down to arguing bits of minutae as only this group of folks can.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

It is stupid, I agree. I think it was MEANT to be stupid, if you pay close attention to the tone of Mr. Bliss’s original comment. The shocker is that anyone would take it seriously. (No offence to anyone who has taken it seriously, or to anyone who is taking THIS post seriously.)

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Wouldn’t catch us in Norn Ireland fighting over something stupid, Nell.

And Breandan, the English did not come to Ireland in 1192, that was the Normans, who are French. The King was Henry, like him who plays for Arsenal. The French were that clever that the Brits got the blame ever since.

This thread was about change, not the super race. My first sentence was "no I haven’t become a nationalist". But it’s great, brings out all the hidden prejudice.

Nearly mastered the viola.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

hey, you don’t have to practice the viola. It’s easy. ;)

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

You playing it with a penknife, then, Bliss?

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

hahahahahaha! Nice, greg, nice…

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

The current state of the art for DNA testing of lineage traces back to a common origin, Africa between 60,000 and 80,000 years ago. These were to original Africans, and the purist current form of that lineage are the San (also known as Bushmen). If we are going for roots music, we all need to add some African to the agenda.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Does "Diamonds on the Soles of Her Shoes" count, Ceol?

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Pete, saying "many of us" is stereotyping us here at thesession.org (those flesh-and-blood people at the other end of the pixilated screen you’re typing on), in much the same way as saying a woman with dark skin can’t be a good Irish trad player.

When you start thinking you know what the rest of us are thinking, you ignore the individual for who s/he is. Which is what’s wrong with the whole premise of this thread.

Posted .

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

WE’RE ALL DIFFERENT! WE’RE ALL DIFFERENT! WE’RE ALL DIFFERENT!

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Isn’t that generalization a bit steroyping ? After all, can’t some of us be the same? :-0

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Okay, everybody, all together… "we are all individuals!"

P.s.

Well, yeah, Will, right… I mean, she’s a woman, right? *smirk*

This is heavy heavy irony and sarcasm, okay? Nobody take that seriously!

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

She’s doomed from the start. Imagine if she played bodhran…. *smirk laced with enough irony to sink the QEII*

Posted .

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

… struggling to picture the QEII being sunk by a cargo of lace…

Right, I’m off home now. Thanks for keeping my mind off my job for another day….
And it was curried vegetables, by the way. That I had for lunch. (Though I think Duijera has gone to sleep now, so he’ll just have to contain his curiosity until tomorrow…)
*yawn*… *stretch*…
Bye!

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

And hey, she could put track her playing into rap songs. That’d sink her entirely if she hasn’t already gone down for the third time.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Bye, nell, have a great evening!

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Bye Zeen, have fun with your housework! 🙂

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Fiddlemethis: Sterotyping? Is that typing on steroids. I would probably beat up my computer. 😉

Kerri: your cap lock is stuck.

The new mantra, "I am an individual, I am an individual, I am an individual." At each repetition, head butt a Tibetan Gong. Can anyone do a Vedic or Zen translation?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

You’ve been practising Grego. Two crackers in a minute, "souls of her shoes" is grade A stuff.

I always played the viola, I don’t really play the bodhran at all. When I came onto this site I was too embarrassed to confess to playing a viola, that I pretended to play the oldest, and most traditional instrument of them all, the drum, just to gain acceptance. Boy, was I wrong.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Thus do best intentions make fools of us all, bliss. 🙂

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

"What is the sound of one head butting?"

I think this thread answers that….

Posted .

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

As a matter of interest, which seems to support the notion that ITM can and should be played by everyone - the US didn’t invent basketball - a Canadian did.

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Actually, the Aztecs invented basketball.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

I thought Will’s first thread, that’s number one on this, said it all. Obviously Will doesn’t agree.

Where did Pete D go. Does he hate women, is he a male chauvenist? Is he Irish born?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Nah…just avoiding a work project. But even work is starting to look good compared to this. 🙂

Posted .

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Interesting footnote: The losing team in Aztec basketball would be sacrificed to the gods.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

A Canadian Aztec invented basketball? See, that just proves the point of this entire thread, or was that the other one I started?

You’d never guess I was off work this week, eh Will.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

What’s the difference between being Irish born and not: If you’re Irish born you’re more likely to grow up hearing the music in a way that non-Irish born can compare to how familiar they are with Christmas carols. If I endeavored to play Christmas carols I could have started when I was five and I’d know them all by heart at the same age. I would be able to reproduce all the subtleties just like Aunt Wilma does, and by now I’d be touring the world with a hot Christmas carol band. As non-Irish born musicians – we have to struggle a bit more to learn the music, and we have to artificially inseminate ourselves with the tradition. Some Irish born that didn’t grow up in a diddly-di family or neighborhood will have similar problems… I know a few myself. It’s all about advantages and has little to do with your genes.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Nurture over nature.

"artifically inseminate ourselves" Ewwwwww! Unless of course you mean drinking Guiness. (Urp—I may never look at a pint of the black stuff the same way again.)

Posted .

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

"artificially inseminate ourselves with the tradition" Jack? I take it you’ve got a blender, a turkey-baster, and a copy of "100 best session tunes" in your bathroom cupboard?

Me I just play the fiddle a lot.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

You beat me, Will. Phooey.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

No Will, not Guinness, I’m talking about anal supositories. Didn’t you order any from the Diddly-di catalog? 😀 hahaha

So that’s what they mean by "craic"!

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Patient: "That pill is huge. I can’t swallow that!
Doctor: "Good news—it’s a suppository."

Posted .

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

And here I thought you guys would make fun of the "hot Christmas carol band." But nooooooo… you had to go for the insemination bit. You guys are are just a bunch of Sick-Os.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

I did think about it, but the insemination just sort of pushed all thoughts of it out of the way…

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

What’s the emoticon for Hannibal Lecter doing the slurrping thing?

Posted .

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Ewwwww. I’m going to the bank now.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Which "bank" is that, Zeens, the one with turkey basters full of Irish authenticity? ;o)

Posted .

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

There is no shortage of Irish-born lads willing to inseminate North American ladies with The Tradition. All you need to do is ask.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Now we know where all YOUR thought are, Zina. 😉

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Me!? Hey, I’m not the one going on about suppositories and inseminations and all!

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Uh huh… go ahead — just try to dig your way out of this one.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

What with you all doing your best to do the burying? Hah. i laugh at your feeble attempts to get yerself outta the hole. Besides, I have to get to the bank. ;)

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

If Irish lads were to, you know, North American ladies, would that be enough? You would probably produce Garth Brooks. I mean surely all country and western singers should be from the country (rural) and the west. Can nothing be done about this?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

The Irish gave us Paddy’s Day — a day where Yanks get drunk and obnoxious and puke up anything with shamrocks in it. Our revenge — Country & Western Music.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

our family name is odonovan, and we hail from County
Kerry. my fathers names are Kevin Patrick.
do i qualify to voice an opinion

magus

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Magus, have you read any of the the thread above?

Even if you’re committed to a mental institution for life you qualify to voice an opinion.

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Hmmm… opinions from patients in mental institutions. Sounds like mainstream media coverage of the Terri Shaivo situation that we’ve endured for the last couple of weeks.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Sorry I fell behind on this. It’s moving so fast.

Kerri, we’re not all different. It’s just you who’s different. We don’t have fangs. (At least not literally.)

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

This thread brings two things to mind:
First, the old signs in the US, "No Irish Need Apply." I guess this thread is posing the opposite premise, although our friend bb posed it to be provocative, not to advocate the position.
Second, the Robbie O’Connell song about his early experience as an Irish singer in America "You’re not Irish, you can’t be Irish, you don’t sing Danny Boy, or Tura Lura Lura, or even Irish Eyes….."

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

The story so far. Grego has lost it, Garyamartin has lost it with Kerri, Jack has given a reasonable explanation of c&w, and Al is accusing me of being provocative.

Didn’t even get one diehard saying "yes, it should be Irish only" but as Zina said many posts ago, most purists are not from Ireland.

There was even the odd serious posting. Jack’s about environment and opportunity was true. Someone e-mailed me the other day talking about sessions where people have sheet music. Now I’ve never seen that in England or Ireland, but fair play to them, if that’s how you start when opportunities are limited, and it keeps the music alive and spreading, that’s the way to go.

Do bodhran players have sheet music?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

"I just never hear the term "ethnically English" is all. Curious."

Just come to America then, or perhaps the north counties.

"Al is accusing me of being provocative."

Nooooooooooo! Say it isn’t so.

"…sessions where people have sheet music."

Our piano player always uses sheet music. The oboeist seems to do fine by ear, however. I’ll use sheet music for kazoo, but not at a session.

"Do bodhran players have sheet music?"

Scoring for bodhran is remarkably easy. First, of course, find a nice, clean sheet of blank typing paper.

Done.

KFG

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Bodhran Bliss. Aha! That name is obvious if he doesn’t play the bodhran.
Trevor

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

"I just never hear the term "ethnically English" is all. Curious."
"Just come to America then or perhaps the north countries."

Nope, didn’t hear it there either - or Canada. How far north do you have to go?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

"And it was curried vegetables. That I had for lunch." - Nell.

Hmm, thought as much, Nell. That’ll do it every time! 🙂

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

A pint of real ale, best beer in the world, sitting at the village green watching cricket. That’s ethnically English, and really quite enjoyable if you stop short of twenty pints.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Warm ale or cold, Bliss? It’ll make a difference getting to twenty.

Watching the Australians do the English (again) is far more satisfying - good eh!

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

no.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Ah, come on, Caraaz - the last thing the Australians will ever do will be to beat the poms at cricket! Everyone knows that.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

whats cricket?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

I’d be sayin’ that too if I was English! 😉

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Love to see Oz stuff England at cricket, but warn English real ale is the stuff.

Why do you think I don’t imbibe anymore.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Warm. Sorry Kerri, no please don’t, noooooooooooo………..

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Didn’t think it for a second, Bliss.

Warm beer out here will be taken back for a refund, and probably result in a formal consumer complaint to the authorities!

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Warm what? Don’t what? Are we still talking about keeping things alive and spreading via insemination?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Wow, I wonder if this thread holds the record for the amount of posts. Mine makes 162.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Nah, I think we’re on about turkey basters, bodhrans and blenders!

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

I have joined this rather late. So sorry for stirring up a can of worms. But referring to Will’s point
" (4. The Irish person perceptively noticed that the Aussie players, though they knew the notes, did not know the music—that their sense of timing, phrasing, lift, articulation, etc., was genuinely and markedly different from anything he’d heard back home.) "
and ‘Duijera Dubh’s thought that it may in fact be the case.

What sessions in Sydney do you acutally hang out at Duijera?
Because at the session that I play at currently there are 3 very spot on *Irish* musicians. One german who lived in Ireland for 10 years, one Australian who lived in Manchester for 12 years, one Aussie who grew up listening to Irish music since birth and one Aussie who grew up listening to folk (not Irish) and can still run musical rings around most musicians that he meets. So where exactly is the *aussie slant* coming from?? It certainly isnt any of the musicians mentioned so I fear it may in fact be completly untrue.

I would say that the muscian who made that remark was probably just slagging, taking the p*ss and having a laugh - sounds the most likely scenario.

The other point is that most people playing Irish music dont usually come from a ‘Aussie tune’ scene - that kind of music is pretty rare and people tend to stick to it once they start, also things like blugrass and old timey seem to be quite seperate (except for some lads in Melbourne) so the style played is usually something picked up from the many trad music teachers that have been through - and dare I say it - CDs and stuff. And also many of us have lived in Ireland for years and picked stuff up there first hand.

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

I didn’t get the impression he was slagging, bb. More like a personal opinion which he was quite free to make at the time. From memory, I don’t think any of the musicians you’ve mentioned were there at the time actually.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Duijera, of course it will be warm after it has been imbibed!
Trevor

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

It’s all about maintaining a balance between external and internal temperatures and barometric pressures, and the art of zen, isn’t it?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Bliss - I make no mention of the English arrival in 1192 or whatever - the Normans get a mention before the English. The later plantations included many English including, of course, many of Cromwell’s army.

Bob Quinn makes a powerful case for his Atlantean theory in the book in the link above [btw - the blurb on the web page is written by my wee bro Liam who works for Lilliput].

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

If some Irish fella walked into the pub where I play on Tuesday and said "That’s not Irish music - it’s Canadian." a) I’d be flattered, and b) he’d be right. I feel no driving need to sound like someone who grew up next door to the Dohertys.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

So how do you think ‘Canadian’ would sound, Kerri? How would it differ?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

It sounds the way it sounds. There’s more emphasis on rhythm, maybe because the music and dance over here is more integrated than it is in Ireland, more double stopping, more mucking about with key changes and crooked rhythms (in Quebec especially), and a tendency to less continuous phrasing. It’s also very regional. You get different stuff in the Ottawa Valley than you do in Quebec. A lot of the *tunes* are Irish, but the music is not. How can it be? It’s been living here in isolation for nearly 400 years. Or, maybe it’s more Irish than Irish music, which was *not* isolated from other influences for 400 years.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

There is a point that has been overlooked in the challenge that is presented by the implications in this term of “Irish born” in this thread.

This thread is posing a geo-political question which is at the root of quite a lot of world problems - and the music is being presented as a signifer of sorts. Bliss has thrown a cat amongst the pigeons here, and then calmly plays viola ‘while Rome burns’. Bliss knows it will get a run - he’s just not sure what to do with it when it does.

How does playin’ diddly at the village green cricket go down in Norn Ireland, Bliss? 😉

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Like it, Kerri. Don’t know whether I call it isolation, but sure, immersed in your land and your local cultural influences for a long time, and being comfortable with that. I find it totally interesting to hear, for example, an Irish tune sound so different in different places. This sort of notion doesn’t go down well with everyone though.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Bridie, did you say you were stirring up a can of worms? Mmm just in time for dinner.

I think the point to remember here is you don’t need to be Irish born to play Irish music, Kevin Burke being a point in case. Wasn’t Andy Irvine born in London too?
Anyway there’s enough Irish-born people who couldn’t give a fiddler’s fart about traditional music so there’s plenty of room for everyone else.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Yeah, but can it sound different if you’re say, "Canadian born", and does it matter if it does? Isn’t that the point too?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

"I find it totally interesting to hear, for example, an Irish tune sound so different in different places. This sort of notion doesn’t go down well with everyone though."

Didj, anyone who can’t accept the validity of regional stylistic differences has a looooooooooooooong way to go before they have any business imposing their views about "traditional music" on the rest of us. It’s insane to take pride in being able to tell the difference between the regional styles of Galway and Co. Down, but then sneer at at the regional styles in Australia, Canada and the US as being inauthentic, cheap mockeries. Don’t you think that’s insane? I mean, can’t we all agree that’s wildly hypocritical and move on?

By the way, being "Canadian born" makes no difference if you’re born in, say, Calgary. You either grow up with it or you don’t. Once you’re immersed, you pick it up, whether you’re 6 or 60, but first you have to go get yourself immersed. That’s not easy in the city I grew up in. I had to go find another one.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Are these regional differences not what the whole thread was about? Should they be acceptable? I started with Brazilians playing football with their feet, unlike England who use their heads. But it is still football.

So should Brazil and Kerri be expelled and shunned for not being fully traditional.

Just of to my "Flat Earth" Society meeting.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Diversity *is* traditional. Homogeny is a fairly recent development.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

My little girl is ten years old. She and my cousins daughter would often lilt the tunes that we were practising for a recording [ they were about four years old at the time ]. I take Kerries side of the debate, immersion may be the thing to do. Although there are exceptions to every rule. There are people here who grew up in trad families, and even though they loved the music, they still were c**p players. So there!

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Canadians like noodles with their ITM. *burp* 😀

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

This is now turning into a "Nature" or "Nurture" argument. Now if you have all night to discuss Tabula Rasa I can really start.

Suffice to say if I had been born in Buckingham Palace I would probably say "Bloody" all the time, and talk with one hand in my coat pocket.

Being immersed obviously helps if you want to become a player, but does not guarantee success. Likewise people from other music genres can change to ITM when they become aware of it. I mean, it’s easy isn’t it, to quote M.G.

But should they be allowed in?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Canadians don’t play ITM, we play CTM. Just as you yourself play USATM, no matter how much you’d like to convince yourself otherwise.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Oh all right, let them all bloody in. The more the merrier I say.

Oh, for heaven’s sake, BB. Of course they shouldn’t be allowed in. It’s not healthy for the rest of us to covet and try to emulate the Irishness of the Irish, or to struggle to achieve a faux-irish-immersion sound in our playing. We must embrace the identity our borders confer upon us and shout loudly and proudly, "I… AM… PLAYING… CANADIAN… MUSIC!" for all the world to hear. We must continue in the time-honoured tradition of the descendents of Irish expatriates: Steal the tunes, screw them up and call them yours. Likewise, the Irish must gather together on the westernmost tip of the Dingle peninsula and call out in one harmonious voice, "YOU’RE… NOT… PLAYING… IRISH… MUSIC!" Then we can all start dropping bombs on one another.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

So does that mean that I actually DO play ITM? Because I`m from Ireland? And this means anyone outside Ireland plays, well, a dialect?
There`s something not quite right about this statement. For starters, I know alot of ITM players from all over the world, the good players who were non-Irish, were every bit as competant in their playing style as the natives, their feel for the music, every bit as delicate and sympathetic as the rest of us, their love of the history behind it every bit as passionate. Yes they had to go on pilgrimages to find good trad,[ which is why I met half of them in Ireland in the first place] but then again so did I and I live here!. When the sessions were in full flow, they added strength and style to the whole proceedings, and they kept it true to the nature of the music.
Lets face it, the human race is a migrant species, and while I personally would love to say that all us paddy`s are the only true ITM muso`s, even I grumpy oul purist that I aspire to be, must concede that no one set of people own it. Emigration saw to that.
It`s kind of like saying that the best trad players in this isle come soley from Donegal.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Sorry didnt mean to be so serious, couldnt seem to help myself. I love a good argument, and I`m tired being silly, my April the First fervour isnt what it used to be, must be getting old………………………………

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

"So does that mean that I actually DO play ITM? Because I`m from Ireland? And this means anyone outside Ireland plays, well, a dialect?"

No, it means I’m a dialect-playing derelict. 😛

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

LOL nice one Jack………………..I can see there is ,as yet, nothing wrong with your April fools fervour, tell me, how do you do it?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

All the best trad players in Canada come from Canada.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

I was not aware it was April Fool’s day, thank you wreckin’. That means some people could be less than serious.

I hope Kerri didn’t think I was a "septic tank". If you did Kerri, Canada won’t be big enough.

I learnt to play in England, having hung around sessions in Ireland for years. Does that make me an anglo ITM player, even though I was born in Ireland?

Where are the "nature" defenders?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

"I find it totally interesting to hear, for example, an Irish tune sound so different in different places."

I spent part of last night listening to "Irish" music fiddled with jazzy overtones and a distinctly Texas accent.

I found two things interesting, although it was often hard to recognize the specific *tune* being played underneath the various transforms it had been subjected to, it was very easy to distiguish as being *Irish * in derivation, even through the Texas swing style of playing it; and, It was all quite good music.

KFG

Posted by .

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Apparently so Bliss. I was born in Ireland grew up in Canada, came back to Ireland and remained here ever since, whats the formulae for working that one out?
Am I a CTM, with ITM tendancies, or does the double ITM cancel out the CTM and thats that, or what?

Feeling a little light headed now……………..not to mention confused……………………….

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Well, Duijeria. I dont place much weight on the opion of a musician at a session with none of the mentioned musicians, The others sessions Sydney that I can think of tend to be more kind of *jam* sessions so in fact may be more kind of ausssie-Not really trad sessions at all. So the fact that it wasnt the above mentioned session makes complete sense that the visting musician would think that it had an aussie slant -. I’d be interested also to know exactly who these other musicians are - I am always up for a tune, so if there is another session happening please let me inon it. There arent enough *Jams* I say.

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

I understand that people are happy with not sounding trad when playing and embracing other influences with regards to their playing. Thats fine. Thats not me. I play irish - I want to sound trad. thats ok right? Anyhow. Each to their own and all tha mularchy.

Posted by .

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

PS Duijera - is that you greg??? Trying to think of the uillean pipe players in Syndey …….

Posted by .

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

"I understand that people are happy with not sounding trad when playing and embracing other influences with regards to their playing" bb.

What about though if they aren’t aware that they are embracing other influences with regards to their playing, but they are happy they *are* sounding trad in an ITM way?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Then they’re probably not listening to enough Irish music. 🙂

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

But they are listening to plenty at the sessions they go to, aren’t they?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

If they’re all only listening to each other play, and they all, all unawares, are playing a version of traditional music that includes other influences, then they’re not listening to enough irish music, if sounding "authentic" (whatever the hell that means) is their goal. Snap.

But, you’re just yanking chains now, aren’t you, Duij? IS it Greg, anyway?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Does being born in Ireland mean that you are Irish, Wreckin’, or did we have all that earlier with Nell and England?

And why Donegal? Are they claiming to have started ITM. For years half of Belfast used to rave about going up to Donegal because the music was great, but nearly everyone playing was from Belfast. Seemed like a waste of petrol in the end.

Mind you there are many fine musicians from Donegal, and I do have a Donegal surname. So the question has now become, "Did the Bliss family start ITM, and should I allow anyone else to play?"
I like that.

PS wreckin’, the bad news is that all my Belfast relatives are called REA.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Greg - if that is you I am going to smack you in the head tonight🙂 you complete stirrer! The only reason I think its you is cause I know its not olli, and you are the only other pipe player.
Anyhow - people in australia have had the benefit of sponsoring musicians to come teach here -we did it for about 10 years and had the likes of Mary Shannon, Maire O’Keefe and Mary Custy out. So I’m pretty sure alot of players are *well* aware of what Trad sounds like and arent bring in any other influences. Australia as I mentioned before does not have a strong scene in its own traditional music, not like for example America with bluegrass and old timey or Germany with its polkas etc.

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

bb, I’ll of course be denying it’s me vehemently, so you won’t smack me in the head. 😉

But aren’t there other possible influences on the way one plays ITM besides Australian trad?

But quite apart from that, there’s always the influence of CDs too I guess, isn’t there?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Yeah of course there is…but they have those same influences in Ireland as well - CDs etc.

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

But wouldn’t the (non CD) influences in Ireland be different to the ones in Australia, and that’s why yer player thought it sounded Australian?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

What I’m trying to get at, is the same as Zina and Kerri and KFG and others are pointing out above. What about this hypothetical: if a group of Australian sessioners were playing a certain group of Irish tunes for a long time, and didn’t have exposure to any other influences, including CDs, and say another group of Canadian sessioners did the same thing with the same tunes, and another group of Irish sessioners did the same thing, all in their respective countries, isn’t it very likely that the *style* will be quite different between each group over time, and the sound will be different, even though the tunes are the same.

I do think it would be - I find it interesting to consider what the influences are and whether that sort of puts a *stamp* on the regional sound.

The central question will then arise, as to whether the music remains *Irish* in those circumstances wouldn’t it? The person who made the observation didn’t think it was, at least for that particular group he heard. The implication is that there is a particular *style* which is Irish, rather than just the *content* ie *the tune*.

Don’t you think it’s fascinating!?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

And the other implication of course, is that to some people - good players too - there is an *Australian* style, and a *Canadian* style, etc., which is possible to hear when Irish music is being played.

So Bliss is probably considering by this thread whether one needs to be born in Ireland (and be tuned into the music) to acquire the ability to play ITM.

Then, again, there’s the CD angle!

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

With the world’s technology the way it is having recording devices, jet planes, Internet, etc. it’s possible to learn to play ITM with all the style that an Irish-born player might have. The Irish-born players have an advantage having possibly grown up around the music. But I have witnessed people learning ITM off of sheet music before they understand the subtleties of the style. I have seen these same people then teach other neophytes how to play the melody sans style. I have seen them gather together and all play like that together. This worries me. So I say it’s possible for non-Irish to play ITM if they pursue it thoroughly and carefully, but it’s also possible to never learn to play it as a result of being so far removed from the source. I wouldn’t call the latter a "regional style," but rather — a regional error.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

See, Jack Gilder too believes there are subtleties of style which puts a *stamp* on the tunes.

What are the subtleties of Irish style ITM? Or are there styles within Ireland?

Jack, why does it *worry* you if ITM is played without that style?

Is it still ITM if it isn’t played without that style?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Jack, is it okay in Ireland to learn tunes and style from CD’s?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Sorry, "Is it still ITM if it isn’t played *with* that style?"

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

"Suffice to say if I had been born in Buckingham Palace I would probably say "Bloody" all the time, and talk with one hand in my coat pocket."

If only 🙂 Perhaps both hands in your pockets?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Good God Bliss, perhaps we ARE related. It`s not unheard of you know.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Wow, I wake up, pour some coffee, sit down at my computer and BAM – a gaggle of questions from Duijera Dubh I’ll try to answer them. *sip*

“What are the subtleties of Irish style ITM? Or are there styles within Ireland?”

Sure there are styles within Ireland, but I’m talking more about what separates ITM from Irish melodies. Anyone can play Irish melodies, but getting the style is what we spend all our time pursuing. The style is what you acquire after listening for a long time, and working on for the rest of your life.

I don’t understand enough about ITM to readily recognize regional styles within Ireland that well. I can usually recognize Northern regional styles, but I’m still just guessing. I’ve heard people who know much more than I do complain that regional styles are suffering as recoding technology improves. The travel limitations of the past helped to maintain some of these styles, but there is a lot more movement around the country now than before. This is a topic for a new thread perhaps. Maybe someone besides Bodhran Bliss could initiate it? 😉

“Jack, why does it *worry* you if ITM is played without that style?”

If people aren’t learning the style with the music, and just getting it from the “dots” chances are they will only be playing the melodies. If they begin to influence and instruct other people who want to learn — it’s like the blind leading the blind. Having said that, my assumption is that they would either loose interest after a while, or realize at some point that there’s more to it, but then they’ll have an even bigger task of un-learning what they’ve been ingraining into their music up until that point.

“Is it still ITM if it isn’t played with that style?”

No, it’s just Irish melodies.

“Jack, is it okay in Ireland to learn tunes and style from CD’s?”

I know a few world-class players living in Ireland that do. Why not? Recordings capture a lot. But I think there’s an incredible advantage to being able to sit in the same room a few feet away and watch… and eventually play along. There are many subtleties that you’d observe there that could never come across on a CD. You also get a sense of how the music relates to Irish culture and society – crucial understandings. (and you find out what Guinness is supposed to taste like *hic*) But that’s where jet-planes come in handy – they get you there. They also get great musicians over to where you are, and that’s great too, but I highly recommend frequent trips and long visits to Ireland if you’re really interested.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

My personal opinion about trad is that it is to a certain extent uncontrolable. Everybody puts a different slant on it whether they mean to or not, even purists disagree about it at times. And so what? As long as we endeavour to remain true to the history of it and the tunes can be passed on to the next generation in their basic forms, surely regional styles are a matter of personal taste. What I mean to say is, if I travel to Cork from the North, sit in a session and play a bog standard reel like say Maid behind the bar, they recognise it and join in, then the first hurdle of compromise has already been jumped. The other hurdles may be the rythm or speed or various other factors too numerous to mention, but they still understood me, and that is my point. If you disagree with my theory, think about the last time you joined a brand new session, I`ll bet it took a while to settle in. Each to their own is what I say, as long as they`re speaking the same musical language that is.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Those last two posts by wreckin’ rea and Jack are very interesting in comparison. Wreckin’ rea in Ireland seems comfortable with regional style variations, but Jack is saying that ITM without *Irish* style isn’t ITM at all - it’s just "Irish melodies". Both seem to agree though that there isn’t one ITM *style*.

So which one(s) should be adhered to so as to be playing ITM as opposed to just Irish melodies?

Jack makes a very central point here I think, when he says "You also get a sense of how the music relates to Irish culture and society - crucial understandings."

How does it relate, Jack? How does having that understanding influence the *Irish style* of playing ITM?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

In counterpoint to my previous post, last night I was out listening to a group that spent all night playing almost nothing but Irish melodies as part of their "Celtic" act, acoustically, but not once did they sound the least bit Irish, even when I recognized the tunes (only thanks to the flute player and his lovely, old Patrick Olwell). If I did not know the tunes I don’t think I could have even identified them as being Irish in origin.

These people were *not* speaking the same musical language, even though they were playing the same notes in the same order.

(The Texas swing group had consisted of electric guitar, 7 string fretless electric bass guitar, drum kit and electrified acoustic fiddle)

KFG

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Is it still ITM in those circumstances, KFG?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

It is traditional Irish music, but it is not Irish music performed in an Irish tradition. It is in the New England musical tradition, derived from Irish, which in turn is derived, at least in part, from other sources as well (which was actually part of a point buried in my first sardonic post in the thread. Do I have the right to sing "cowboy" songs. I have actually worked as a cowboy, driving herds from horseback on a working farm, but that farm was a dairy farm in Vermont. What is a "cowboy" and what is a "cowboy song"?).

The root is common, the language is not.

Is English Anglish? They are part of the same linguistic line, the one being descended, in part , from the other, and yet the speaker of one would not understand the speaker of the other, not to mention Shaw’s famous observation that England and America were "two nations seperated by a common language."

The two modern languages most closely related to modern English are French and Dutch, and yet without actually learning these languages an Englishman cannot make himself understood in France or the Netherlands.

But taxonomies refuse to be clean cut. The world does not feel obligated to divide itself into clean little boxes, hence my question about the guitar shaped bouzouki/8 string tenor guitar.. The difference between the two being only what someone choses to call it. The instrument is what it is, a physical object in a particular configuration. Period.

Hence, I know Irish music when I hear it. I know New England music when I hear it.

But I cannot tell you where the line between them is to be drawn, because the music itself doesn’t give a damn about lines. It’s all just music. Until you start bringing Copeland and Cage into the picture to muddy even that water, which was much the point of their "music" at times.

Taxonomies are not "real." They are linguistic and conceptual constructs by which we can discuss and come to better understandings of the *relationships* between things, but they do not, and cannot, actually confine the world to neat little boxes. Which is why when you start trying to delve deep into the heart of things you suddenly discover you need *multiple,* and sometimes overlapping, taxonomies to describe the same thing, depending on what perspective you are viewing the thing from.

And in some of the those taxonomies the question of "Irishness" isn’t even sensical.

Now, if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to go play some music. I fancy The Frost is all Over, for I think obvious reasons, and I shall play it in the Traditional Irish Vermont blues singing cowboy from New York style, as I believe only I can. This style does not at all sound like I learned it from the dots, but whether it sounds Irish to an Irishman, I don’t know, and tonight don’t care. Tomorrow I might care again.

Hobgoblins of small minds, and all that.

KFG

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

DD writes: Wreckin’ rea in Ireland seems comfortable with regional style variations, but Jack is saying that ITM without *Irish* style isn’t ITM at all - it’s just "Irish melodies".

I don’t understand your comparison. Rea is comfortable with regional style variations — and so am I. It’s the absence of style that I have a problem with. That’s when it gets reduced to just being a melody. I don’t think Rea really even addressed that aspect in her posting.

DD asks: How does it relate, Jack? How does having that understanding influence the *Irish style* of playing ITM?

Seeing how the music is treated in the country of origin, (Ireland in this case,) leads to a greater understanding of it, and will sort out any errant preconceptions one might develop in a non-Irish environment that’s far removed. There’s a flavor in any indigenous ethnic music that can’t be explained, but can only be experienced.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

A lot of nonsense gets talked about the Irish origins of much music.

Half of the tunes and most of the songs I hear at "Irish" sessions are not of Irish origin, or are at least so mixed up with stuff from other parts of these islands that no-one really has any idea.

Yes, there is stuff that has a style that is quintessentially Irish, Scottish or English etc. but heck, even that’s a moving target.

Box playing (button accordion/melodion) has changed markedly over the last 50 years, when does this officially become Irish traditional rather than something else closer to it’s origins in the USA.

I’ll continue with my love of Irish music, but I refuse to be pushed into a position where I have to apologise for being English and playing masses of English, Scottish, French, North American and Scandinavian stuff as well.

I’m happy that the Irish play their traditional music (in fact I love it) and they can take whatever influences they like, but I will also take my influences from Irish music (heck, I can hardly help it) and develop it in my tradition.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Absolutely not! In the Washington, DC area there is an American-born fiddler of Asian descent who plays some of the best Donegal-style fiddling I’ve ever heard.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

no

dumb question

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Some of the best exponents I played with were English, with no Irish connections. Last time I played in O’Ds in Dublin in late seventies, there were about 20 musicians, and I was the only Irish person, and me a mere humble bodhran player. Loads of blonde Swedish girls with fiddles and harps. They were all good players.

So, did they not need this "genetic Irish" feel that Jack seems to be suggesting? I agree that one needs to "get into" the music, the reason some classical players cannot affect the change, but I do not think you have to be Irish to achieve this. On the contrary, James Galway who is Irish struggled with Irish Traditional stuff. Derek Bell did not.

For the same reason, I don’t think you need to be from the Mississippi Delta to play Blues, or New Orleans to play Jazz.

But you do need to feel it.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

I think John Doyle Jnr has it in a nutshell.

No offence intended, after all us Irish are famous for waffling as well, we love a good debate. See, this forum satisfies me on so many levels…….

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

There’s a tendancy in these discussions for people to respond to things other people say out of context with what their initial point was. As a result, opinions are easily misconstrued. I have never agreed with the premis of this thread, and I made that clear, my point was that if you’re far removed from the source, and not careful about your learning process — you might only be learning to play Irish melodies sans style. It’s the style that defines the music. There are great players outside of Ireland, but they have paid great attention to style. Dave Abe is a perfect example of this.(Graewulf’s un-named example)

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

"I think John Doyle Jnr has it in a nutshell."

I think he has missed a subtlety of the tradition. It is not a dumb question.

It is a silly question.

KFG

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Since the premise of the thread was to be more or less ridiculous, I think Kevin has it right. But maybe I only think that because I know Bliss’s bandmates refuse to take him seriously, so i tend not to take a great deal of what he says over seriously either. 🙂

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Has anyone thought about the huge Irish diaspora over the centuries that all us non-Irish ITM players have some Irish in us? It was a common ruse for non-Irish trying to get into the Irish Club in Sloane Square (RIP) to say their grandmother was from Cork. Nobody could dispute that!
It wasn’t until I took an interest in ITM that my father informed me that his grandfather was from Ireland, and a musician……

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

I don’t think anyone would believe me. It’s something about my eyes, I just know it.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Zina, I think you have some Irish in you… Irish whiskey that is. 😉

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

LOL — well, okay, maybe…just maybe… 🙂

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

"It’s something about my eyes, I just know it."

Maybe if you dye your hair orange they won’t notice.

And then there’s always Danielle Graham.

KFG

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

My great-great-great-great-great grandfather (on my mother’s father’s father’s father’s father’s side) was from Ireland. One down, a hundred and twenty-seven to go.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

So was mine, of course so am I, not that it matters.

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

That’s nothing — I’m a reincarnated Irishman.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Somehow I doubt it Jack. You take Irishness more seriously than a real irishman would.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Zina, do not let my benevolent nature fool you. My band mates regard me with awe and due reverence.

All of this, 3 threads, started with me breaking a whistle. Earlier on the same night on the way to the session my mobile phone somehow slid down a grating, grid, manhole (whatever) into the sewers below. It was dark so the phone was abandoned.

The next day, without me even being present, the guitarist/singer got into the sewer to retrieve the phone. That is the type of respect afforded to my good self.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Just tells me you have nice bandmates. :-p

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Oh yes… I’m so serious. Would you like more fangs drawn on you piccie?

Besides, I think you’re just jealous, Kerri, because deep down inside — you want to be an Irishman.

Hahahahahaha 😀

Ok, uh… what were we talking about?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Look at you - talking to yourself and laughing at your own jokes. That’s pretty "serious", if you know what I mean. I know a guy who knows a guy who could help you out…

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

b-b-b-but… I thought it was pretty funny… seriously.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Now they’re fighting to be Irish. That’s a good start.

Maybe I should have asked "Should ITM be for Non-Irish only?". That’s it, lets ban the Irish born. EUREKA.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

I once had a roommate from Galway who played banjo and was mad for old time American music. There was something surreal about that arrangement — casual observers might have thought we swapped our brains.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Bliss, the said band mate was only looking to see if your wallet was there too! He was going to push you into the drain the night and park his car over the grate when he saw you bent over it! Respect , reverance, and awe? hmmmmm

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Hmmm. Would Wotkey be another bandmate? I love a good soap opera!

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Your very observant Zina, especially on the taking BB seriously remark. Are we just continuing this thread so that BB can steal Jack’s crown for the longest thread ever cos it’s a pain in the arse waiting for it to come up?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

I only do it to annoy because I know it teases. 🙂

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

No, it should only be for the bored Irish. 😲

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Wotkey cannot be in the band because he is not Irish born, he is English. We are loosely based on the Cosa Nostra, although not as cuddly. He can only be a regular visitor to the sessions. He is also in the States a lot, probably plotting against me with half the regulars on this site, driven by his bitterness towards me.

As for JfiddlerH, he just wants to become famous, so that he can drop my name into conversations with Dylan, and Paul Simon, to look like a big shot. And he can say to Liam Og and Paddy Keenen and the rest, "You’ve played with my old mucker Bliss as well, haven’t you".

You see what I have to put up with.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Yes, yes, I certainly do….*smirk*

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Zina

Try this (Its ALWAYS good for a laugh)

When talking to Bliss about ITM/TIM just throw in a name or two, doesn’t matter who (it really can be anyone!!!), it can be from Paddy Glackin to Mairead Mooney, anyone!

Then all you have to do is wait for the Bullsh*t to start. He’ll regail you with tall tails of playing with this one and that one, and of course the person whomever you care to mention.

Usually the setting is at a Fleah in the late 70s-early 80s

Go on. Try it out.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

LOL — JH, you love starting trouble as Bliss does, don’t you?!

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

I got torn a new one for mentioning a name once. I’ll never do that again! Apparently it bothers people. Makes them uncomfortable.

Actually, come to think of it, I can talk about Jackie Chan to trad musicians and they don’t bat an eye - they accept the logic that any story involving my film career (shot) might have something to do with film stars. But man, oh, man, try saying "I sat down for a beer with Kevin Burke" (I didn’t) and some musicians start squirming like salted leeches.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

I once at Thai food with Kevin Burke… does that have the same effect?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Yes, but you’ve eaten Thai food with me too, Jack, and you even paid for it, if I’m remembering correctly, so that’ll take the gloss off that right there. 🙂

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

That was Vietnamese food, Zina, besides — you took me out for doughnuts after the session… so it cancels it out sort of.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

No, I’m relatively sure that you paid for the doughnuts too. Hmmm. I seem to have a pretty good thing going food-wise around you whenever I get out there, don’t I? ;)

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

I once listened to an album with Kevin Burke on it.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

What did he say to you, Kerri?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

"Deedle deedle deedle deedle dee". Why, did he tell you something different?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Was only at one fleadh in the seventies, which just goes to prove what I’ve always said, JfiddlerH does not have a disasterous sense of timing, he just does not listen. e.g Mairead Mooney as a 13 year old used to play tunes with a crowd on Maheragallan beech in Gweedore, Frankie, a neighbour, after he met her asked me to teach him the whistle. Now that is funny, if you ever saw me with a whistle. Handy for sticking in necks however.

The rest my boy are mostly from parties and the ITM nightclub in Chorlton in Manchester.

I resent the suggestion that this is name dropping. As I have always said, when Tiger Woods mentions Ernie Els, is he name dropping?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Bliss, are you sure the old ‘whistle in the neck’ chestnut holds as much menace as it used to with the new model? (For those who are unaware Bliss splashed out and got a new whistle of the polycarbon variety!)

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Uh… Grego…. nevermind. But you have to wake up pretty late to fool this old codger. You have to sleep in till at least noon. 😉

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

HAHAHAHA! I love that, Greg, I’ve never seen those before! I particularly liked the "ad" for Trophy Friends!:

Trophy Friends: "When a Trophy Wife is Too Expensive" - www.rentafriend.com

Feeling old? A young lover is the one solution guaranteed to peel back the years - but the young and hot are difficult to attract and expensive to maintain. Trophy Friends has the answer for you! Our attractive young people will pretend to like you in public for a very reasonable fee. (Prices double if our staffers know your kids. Medical history required. No touching.)

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

And Kerri once asked me to let her know where our "rough" session was so that she could avoid it. Where you afraid of reverting to type Kerri. Anyone punching out bouncers is welcome in MY, yes MY, band, even though you are not Irish born. Well Wotkey couldn’t punch tickets on a bus.

As for young lovers, well you can always e-mail me.

And I still have the tin Bb whistle, you can twist that after the deed.

I liberated the polycarbon whistle from a music shop. When I saw the price afterwards, £19, I was glad that I had the good sense and upbringing to have liberated it.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

By the way this was a serious topic, albeit having nothing to do with being born in Ireland.

To recap. I broke a whistle in a Prima-Donna pique and started a thread. Someone asked "who arranges tunes" and this led to some disparaging remarks. This led to the Individualism thread.

Further disparaging remarks were made, and some wanted to ban individualism. This led to the why not go the whole hog and just have Irish born musicians.

There have now been 393 posts about the broken whistle. But we have found out lots of interesting things about Kerri, Zina, Jack, CC and Grego, who must spend all day searching for girls on the net. They have sites for that sort of thing Greg.

And perhaps inspiration for a new thread such as "Is bouncer punching traditional, and should it be for Irish born only".

I await replies with baited breath.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Uh, sorry… there’s only 275 replies so far on this thread. Well ok… 276 now. Unless you’re talking about some other thread.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Get someone to read the above thread to you Jack, that explains all.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

I think Mr. Bliss has been playing with his crack pipe again.

Greg, that’s hilarious. I was kind of surprised. That’s WAY more hits than I got when I googled myself last year, and most of those were about a Stampede wrestler. I did find a real gem:

http://www.kerribrown.ca/

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Crack Pipe? Have you been searching Google for "Bodhran Bliss"? That’s the only way you could have got such information about me.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

That’s nice, Kay Bee. Good to see you getting so much attention.

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Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

The hat and dark glasses don’t suit you, Kay Bee.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

crimony
fergawdsakes
gaetaedadevalanshayksyersel

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Ok Bliss-ter… I re-read your "recap" post and it’s not exactly clear. Is this the whistle thread you’re talking about, or is it a different one? (like the "Individualism" one) Which thread has 393 posts about a broken whistle?

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Kerri, I have to admit you got me. Straight into the bikini-shots.
I did play the songs, very Sandy Denny.

Jack, were you a "Jock" at college. Breaking the whistle is what led to it all, the other two threads sprang from the whistle one.

Now do not fret yourself about your "record", I was merely pointing out how remarkable, or pass-remarkable, breaking a whistle appears to be. Now relax. I know I may be adept at "spin" but I have the true Olympian spirit, it’s taking part that counts.

I am planning a magic trick tonight with the new whistle and JfiddlerH. Wish me luck.

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

That’s 404 now. Just off to listen to "We are the champions".

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

Having had to punch somebody in the early hours of new years day of this year, (the first blow I’ve struck in 20 odd years) I had hoped not to have to repeat the experience for another long while, but if provoked!!!

Re: Should ITM be for Irish born only?

According to your profile you "bash the guitar", I see it’s not the only thing !

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