Should we differentiate between those who can’t play “yet” and those who, for one reason or another, will never be able to play

I slipped this question in to the mammoth 300+ thread the other day, and I was dissapointed that everyone carried on as if I was complaining about learners.

I have plenty of time for those who can’t play yet. And one of the great thing about these people is they know when enough is enough and they are intelligent enough to just sit and listen for the majority of the night. In fact, that’s one of the ways you can tell them apart from …

… those who will never be able to play.
They hog the tunes, try to play all night, think they contribute etc etc. I have no time for them. This music is not a nice inclusive free for all. When it’s played well it soars, and that should be the goal, to make it soar. It’s as simple as that.

No, I disagree. We should discriminate against, look down upon, and even verbally or physically abuse anyone who cannot play as well as we do. I believe in “Equal Discrimination”.

You’ll know I’m not top flight musician, even although we’ve never played a tune together. Sometimes, I feel that I’m never getting any better but I am really. I just have “off days” from time to time.
Anyway, I do agree with you and I know the type of people you mean. I’ve no objection to them be a part of things as long as the don’t “hog all the tunes” or get carried away. Then, it can get extremely tedious.
On the other hand, I wouldn’t want to discourage them completely. They can often be very nice people and a surprisingly (perhaps not so surprisingly) good source of tunes. You can then play them youself, either properly or in a way that suits you.

It’s a difficult one this - one question people are bound to ask is “how do you know for sure which is which”.

It’s not always as clear cut as you might be seeming to imply.

I think I understand just what you mean Michael, but this one is open to all sorts of misinterpretations.

The other question it brings up is: “Having made such a differentiation, what should we do?” (shoot them? kick them out? abuse them? tell them to shut up? try to help them? go to another session?) - legislation is difficult, however simple the differentiation may be.

Do all of those things Dave. You see you’re *helping* them by shooting them 😀

I don’t want to name anyone here but there’s a guy I know who very much fits into the second category but there’s nothing arrogant or pushy about him. He’s a really nice guy but seems to have reached the upper limits of his ability. However, as I said, he has a great “store of tunes” and his son is actually on eof the best young fiddlers in Scotland.

“One of” I meant to say

When I started, I desperately wanted to be heard, so I used to try and play a little loud. then if i didnt know the tunes, I’d accompany…..on tenor banjo.
I’d say they loved me coming in.

Thats The Thing About The Banjo Make A Mistake And Everybody Hears It.

Haw, Gill, you lookin’ fur trouble, pal?

:~}

BTW, I did see your comment on the other thread, and it was pertinent. Pity it wasn’t developed.

I think John J has it right. They’re OK until they hog it. So it’s nice when they’re not around.

Here we go again…..

But it is hard to believe that someone would remain crap forever: labor omnia vincit: Labour overcomes all difficulties. So rather than *differentiate* maybe we should think in terms of a gradation.

As Dave says, it’s also sometimes difficult to tell which is which. Of course, there are those who will never get any better either because of their own laziness, arrogance or whatever. They may have just reached as far as they can go, although I would argue that there’s always possibility for improvement if you have the right attitude and application.

On the other hand, many people lead busy lives. So, their progress might seem a lot slower. There will be occasions where they haven’t seem to have improved at all or even “gone back”. I don’t really approve of people who haven’t been bothering to play or practice just deciding “Oh. I’ll just go to the session. I’ve not been there for a while.” However, I wouldn’t want them to stay away either just because recent circumstances had prevented them from playing as they’d like.

Maybe the pertinent is: “for one reason or another.” Befor you can be rude to these people, you have to find out their reason for never improving. Some people may have a perfectly valid physical reason. Other’s are just plain lazy. The very first port of call with these peope is to try to reverse their stagnance.

But, and this should be the centre of the discussion,
“What to do with all those noisy eedjits who will forever spoil your tune, no matter how kind or rude you are to them?”

I don’t ever advocate being rude, Michael…except, maybe, when someone’s lack of talent is so intrusive on the rest of the session, that it might hold back other less dominant but more talented players. Or if they shake an egg, or *whack* a bodhrán. Then, that’s not really “playing” an instrument though, is it?

ha ha, this was the thing that got us into trouble on the other one. “We never advocate being rude, except …”

Michael’s post was about differentiating between ‘learners’ and people who will never be able to play. How can you tell which is which? In a minority of cases there are people who have obviously plateaued out at a level of consistent mediocrity. There are occasional others who seem to have never learned to listen to what other people play and plough a lonely furrow regardless. There are a few (well one I can think of) who actually seem to hear music differently from other people and consistently play in a confusing and incomprehensible manner.
But what can you do? I know that they can be cold-shouldered out of the session, but sometimes these people are very nice on a social level. All you can do I guess is try and prod them in the direction of improving - it’s difficult if they either think they are ok, or if they are one of those people who seem resigned to their lowly level of ability and seem to think that’s not a problem. It’s also difficult for those of us who are not 100% confident in our own musical ability to start advising and prodding others - glass houses come to mind …..

I don’t really have a problem with mediocrity in this music (in sessions anyway, but when the mediocre form bands and play payed gigs and make CDs it bugs the hell out me. But that’s a different thread). If anything, the music sits happily with the mediocre. The vast majority of people you play tunes with are at that level, and while it can get dull, it’s not in the least annoying. It’s the people who really cannot play at all but who think they can we need to do something about.

LOL that last sentence is kinda dark.

The question is, how do you know which category *you* belong to yourself ?

There simply are different ‘levels’ of this sort of ‘problem’. I mean, there are people at the sessions I go to that, imo, shouldn’t be playing along yet. They just love playing and want to be heard, want to be encouraged and complimented (just like myself, I guess) and don’t realise they’re not ‘good enough’. But on the other hand I’ve always wondered if other musicians think the same of me but are just too kind-hearted to tell me, and instead just regret it whenever I play along ?

It’d be so much easier if there were ‘rules’ that decide when someone is ‘good enough’ to play at sessions. The regulars / session leaders should, imo, be very strict about this so that those newcommers don’t spoil the fun for the rest… if they need to be rude time and time again, then so be it, imo. I for one would not mind it - if they could give me some constructive advice I would be very thankful and practice hard to try to live up to their expecations. And I’d still visit the session each and every time, and enjoy it equally much - but as a ‘punter’ instead of a participant… after all, we’re all at the sessions because we love the music so much, aren’t we ?

I think you can sort of sense when someone is making a continuous effort as opposed to those who reckon they have it completely sussed. The way I see it is,if I go out for a drink with my friends,I expect to have a balanced conversation with them.
I don’t expect people to sit down beside us and start talking about something else in broken english,you know,when that drunk person sits down and just talks and everyone shuts up coz they want them to leave(as an extreme example).
The same goes for music,as I was told once by ex-Miles Davis saxist Dave Liebman,“if you can’t have a conversation with me,then don’t get up onto the stage beside me and start trying to speak”
I don’t mind people in a session who are conciously making an effort,and are subtle about what they don’t know,but it’s always good to have someone in your company that has a ruthless nature if a subtle piece of constructive advice doesn’t work. It can make life a whole lot easier in the long run. also,traditional Irish music has many a different subject matter with the same tunes,with swing,tempo and attack differences.
There’s nothing wrong with certain musical/stylistic clashes provided the collective intention is similar.
I believe I’ve served my time in manic non-sensical sessions that I’ve also been the ruination of in the past,and I have been rightly scolded when out of my league or box and have worked hard to overcome my annoyances,but still maintaining my own voice.
I don’t need to waste time playing futile music,yes “it’s great fun ,it’s social and it’s not about the ”noise“ you make,it’s about the taking part and the craic”,and that’s ok for some,but when you do this every day for years,it kinda gets tedious,to the point of driving you completely insane.
So,in conclusion,if you want to speak to other people about quantum physics,go learn about it,and get elocution lessons.

no offense,

Peter

Maybe we could petition Comhaltas to start up a colour-graded belt system, like they use in martial arts and calligraphy. Except green belt would be the best and orange belt would be… er… uh oh.

Nevermind.

But the trouble is Peter, you’re speaking to the converted here. The question is, how do you get that across to someone, who by their playing, proves that they have no idea how to listen to music, let alone mere words?
And live with yourself afterwards?

A common factor I’ve noticed with a few fiddle players, who are mediocre on the fiddle, and making little or no progress, but who are otherwise good musicians with an enviable repertoire, is that they have come to the fiddle from playing a plectrum instrument (on which they’re usually very good). What I see is poor bowing technique characterised by one-note-per-bow all the time, poor coordination between bow and left-hand, and often a “glassy” tone. And perhaps poor intonation as well.
What is happening, I believe, is that the plucking action with the plectrum has got ingrained in the muscle control of the bowing arm and hand. The only answer is to go to a good fiddle teacher (perhaps classical) on a 1-to-1 basis for this bowing “technique” (or lack of) to be deconstructed and rebuilt from scratch. Similarly with poor left hand intonation, which arises from the fingers not “thinking” the intonation, which is provided more or less automatically by the frets on their other instrument.

Trevor

I do believe there’s alot of people on this site.
I’ve been inclined to,when I get the opportunity,to sit down with some of these people,who are most of the time nice people,and if I think they’re willing to learn,I will give them as much practical advice as possible,I’m still learning myself and don’t claim I have it completely nailed,as I don’t think anyone can. Sometimes you just have to come across as a bastard,it’s just as simple as that. I hate doing it,but sometimes you have to finish the session you’re being paid for,and you don’t want to endure the same thing every week. I know that I’m more sensitive than most,particularly about accompanists and rhythm players,even when there is 2 good players clashing,or just not listening to the tunes and they don’t think anyone else really notices, as it does effect my playing standard to a large degree being that reactive,some people can play through it and don’t really care,and that’s ok for them.
I can only speak from my own experience,but that’s my way of dealing with it,and I’m not alone,nor the worst tyrant either.
I do think ballad singers and paddy wackery have something to do with,not entirely,but they defintely contribute to some of this blase attitude

Good. General agreement.

But there was a thing arising about how to tell the difference between learners and no hopers. And even to tell if you are a no hoper yourself. The most straight forward way of course is to check if there is any improvement. Difficult when you meet someone for the first time, but then you are probably not going to be rude to someone untill they’ve bugged you for some time anyway. Try giving a simple helping hint. If they’ve took it on board next time you see them, great.

But the one about how to tell if you are crap yourself could be problematic. If you think you are crap, but are actively seeking ways to improve, then provided you’re not too pushy or loud, you deserve and will get plenty of help. And likewise if you think you’re quite good but could do better.

But the problem arizes when you have cloth ears (as my dad used to say). You genuinly think in your heat of heats that the noises you are making are up to the standard of the best in your session. Some one gives you a friendly pointer and you think “Condesending git, How can they teach me anything?”

The only way out of it is to be rude to such people. So rude infact that they say to themselves, “Christ I’m not going there again, those people are horrible. I’ll take my genius to where it’s appreciated.”

I found michael’s original post somewhat offensive, since I am one of those players who is perpetually stuck in the middle ranks, although I constantly strive for improvement. But later he added an important clarification, that is those who cannot play, but think they can, that are the real problem. In an earlier thread, I referred to this as an ego/ability mismatch, and it is indeed one of the greatest sources of problems in sessions.
But NOTHING calls for rudeness. You can be polite and respectful even when giving negative feedback, in fact, even when giving that feedback in a forceful manner, if that is called for. As a coastguardsman, I was trained always to be courteous, even in situations where arrest was imminent.
In the sessions around RI, I am usually comfortable, as there are a lot of ability levels, and most of the sessions spend at least some of their time playing the old favorites (or flogging the old dogs, as some of the more advanced might put it). But when I was called to active duty after 9/11 and stationed in Boston for a few months, there were sessions where I didn’t even pull the instruments out of the case--or played along with my guitar very quietly--as very accomplished musicians flew through reel after reel. I learned a lot from listening, and that is where I first met the young man who is now my guitar teacher.
You need to know when to play, and when to listen and learn, and even in difficult situations, you must always strive for politeness and respect.
We are also lucky around here, in that singing a song here and there, or slowing down for a bit to allow a newbie to join in, does not cause our sessions to degenerate into something we don’t want them to be. The balance between inclusiveness and keeping a good musical standard intact can sometimes be a challenge.

We have a session going for the last many years. There are definitely people that are bad players and never get better. I know some of these people. The biggest problem with them is that generally they don’t LISTEN. The most important thing with playing music is listening. They play in their own world and force others to follow whatever crazy rhythm that they have going. If you don’t then its noise. To often it ends up being noise.

Something that I have seen this lead to is invitation only session. I have heard it said, “ Why play with bad musicians?”.

There are plenty of people out there who do not understand any other language than F*** **F,subtley at first.
Body language can do that to a degree,but when the penny don’t drop…
It’s just as simple as that. I’ve tried everything. And every now and then it’s either stop doing the gig to preserve your own sanity and loose wages if that’s how you earn your living or go to that last resort. I’ve seen good players literally jumping over tables with frustration to kill people,mentioning no names…It does get to that stage on occasion. There are sessions going on that people don’t really care about what’s going on in them,I suggest they go there. I also know a good few musicians who refuse to go out for a tune in pubs due to these frustrations,
and just play at home.
I once played at a festival where we literally had our own trad police monitoring for messers,and there was a few eviction notices handed out. People will nearly “always” take offence at being shushed,there’s not a whole lot of ways around it.
Yes,in one way anyone has the rite to join in in a session no matter what standard they’re at after a good bit at home 1st,otherwise how would they learn,and it’s a known fact that the better the musicians you play with,the better you will get,but it’s not really too much of a problem if they’re melody players and they’re sensitive to their surroundings,and tuning.
For rhythm players,guitars,bouzoukis and percussion of any type,it’s more difficult,because they have a responsibilty to keep time,with corrosponding rhythms ,asthetic harmony and chord voicings,and they need to be psychic if there’s another chord player playing. And even at that,some people hate accomaniment and sometimes it doesn’t suit them due to there style. That can be difficult to gauge, even for experienced players

Its harder for inexperienced ones…..

I find each time I play, I learn something different, about my own playing, and try and improve on it then.however slow it feels, I think its getting better!
I have my own sessions with friends they’re not full on gigs just relaxed quiet ones, so there is no rivalry, or standing on anyones toes etc. T’is good, cause the more comfortable you get with them, the easier it is to take constructive criticism, when its gettin gev out.
Im having a crunchie.

PS Michael, what mediocre bands have released cds?
I know there are a couple I think are sh*te but I’ll let somone else mention names first…

There must be any number of now great performers who once made their first recording and several years later bitterly regretted it had ever been made 🙂

Trevor

Strangely enough, Paddy Glackin considers “Doublin” with Paddy Keenan one of his worst recordings.

The Bothy Band?

Sorry, I don’t want to change the matter. Ignore that.

I say, find them a floozy and let him/her take care of it….

This is a good discussion, thanks Michael for kicking it off.

One aspect that I think sets some folks apart is their passion for the music. Some players are in love with their instrument and/or the music itself, and spend their time playing and listening. They get consumed by it, and you can hear it in their playing and when you talk to them about the music and the playing.

For example, I introduced one of my bodhran students to Colonel Fraiser, and after we spent the first hour working through it he went out and bought 3 CDs with that tune so he could learn it well. He didn’t have much inherent bodhran skill, but man, he knows the tunes and works hard at this stuff. It’s easy to teach him because I know he’ll practice hard all week, even if he only progresses a little.

Others are in love with the session itself, or playing in public, and don’t own much of the music or know the great players, and seem to lack a great passion for the music itself. I see this in students of mine who have great technical skill, but who act bored when they play, and never challenge themselves at the high level sessions. I think, as mentioned above, that listening is a big part of it. They’re not immersed in the tradition and the music, and so they don’t listen because they don’t have the sense that there’s something to strive for, some way of playing out there that’s much better than what they’re doing.

Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water……… No, don’t panic, I shall not rise to the bait!

However, I must say, P.browne, I think that must be the coolest bit of namedropping I’ve ever seen here - “I was told once by ex-Miles Davis saxist Dave Liebman” Yeah! I like it. Give that man a Coconut!

Sorry, should I have clarified that my bodhran student was once Bob Dylan’s hairstylist?

I think it’s easier and more honest just to differentiate between the people you like and the people you don’t like. What’s the point of justifying your own unexamined animosity by pretending it’s an objective assessment of someone else’s musical potential?

I’m living proof that even lazy, arrogant people improve! :^D I find it comical when others insinuate my musical ability is a problem when the actual problem is the fact that I don’t give a poop what anyone thinks of my musical ability.

If I were to trip all over myself trying to make everybody else happy and muttering self-effacing comments about how much I suck all the time I could get away with much, much worse playing and still get all kinds of support and guidance from people like yourself, Michael. I think you’re mistaking shameless self-confidence for an inability to learn.

Or maybe are omniscient, free of baggage and completely objective and can sort people effortlessly with total certainty you’ve not stuck anyone in the wrong pile.

I’ve never been exposed to anyone’s playing for any length of time without noticing some degree improvement, except for a few players who consider themselves so terribly top-notch that they waste their energy evaluating everybody else instead of learning to play better.

We all start at the beginning when we learn to play an instrument. When you make your first cd you’re starting at the bottom of a whole new ladder.

Trevor

He visits Dublin quite often,and I’ve played with him,been taught by him,and recorded stuff for him,just to elaborate on that.
Who would know who he was otherwise…?
If I really wanted to name drop….. I certainly could!

Waiting for the coconut,

Peter

Hey Peter, no offense intended, It was just so refreshing to see a name other than a heavy in the Trad world, mentioned here.
My son is a Jazz musician & enjoys meeting up with all those guys when they pass through Edinburgh.
I know it’s no big deal, really.

I also know full well that if you really wanted to name drop, we’d be hear all night! 😀

Would you settle for a Bounty?

P.S. Say hello to Dessie for me - Doh! - done it myself now!

I can do a little bit of “name-dropping” regarding Peter. The last time I was at the Cobblestone in Dublin he was in a session with Michelle O’Brien, Leonard Barry, and a nice fiddler who had composed some very interesting tunes that he played with Peter. It was a very high level session to say the least. The reason I bring this up isn’t to do what would only be a fraction of Peter’s name-dropping, but rather to illustrate that the difference in the sessions Peter refers to and the ones most people on this board talk about can be light years apart. If it’s a session like Peter’s in a city that’s rich with musicians and sessions the opportunities for musicians to find a session suited for their level is easier. If you’re way out in the outback of Irish music somewhere else on the planet -- the situation changes dramatically. Here in SF for example we don’t have the likes of Peter and Co. wandering around the streets and the sessions are very limited by comparison -- we have to take what we can get. Musicians at all levels will come in and we can’t be as exclusive or we would become very unpopular with the local scene. Our own playing isn’t exactly on the level of the sessions at the Cobblestone either so we can’t afford to consider our session as something as out of reach with the default musical community. A lot of times I’ll watch these discussions about sessions coming from what is probably a wide range of session levels. For that reason it’s no surprise to me that we rarely have much consensus about these things.

P.S. I hope Peter didn’t mind me playing a few tunes with them that day. It was a brilliant session.

Aye Button, it’s more or less like that up here on the North Coast too.

As I said before, we are always glad to see new musicians arive at the table & are usually very polite & tolerant, of any weaknesses they may have in their playing abilities.
We are really just flattered that anyone would want to join us!

You are a braver man, & obviously a far more accomplished musician, than meself, if you were fit to join in with that Cobblestone Session.

When in Dublin, I usually go to Hughes’ Pub along the road, but always stick to the easy going session in the front snug.
I wouldn’t dare show my face in that hot house through the back - except to listen.

Really, Kevin? Geeesh… I must be a clue-less eejit then. I went to Hughesez that same night and played tunes with the gang in the back. No one tried to strangle me or anything. Maybe they’re afraid of my girth. Paul Doyle did kick a stool out next to him and invited me to join them though -- I guess I must look really scary to him. 😏

The session in the snug is great too though… I never realized it was a lesser session. Both sessions get sandwiches.

Sure I’m bounty except a bounty,hi.
no offense taken.
Wot u play phantom button?
I can remember that tune alright.
the other fiddler was Oisin McAuley I’d say, who’s just about to release his solo album,just to give him a plug,

regards

Looked at the site this morning and this thread wasn’t here, and it’s now at 48. Ahem….., I’ve got my six pack handy again. 😉

Hi Peter,

I’m the bearded concertina/flute one. You and I spoke briefly of Edain. It was very early in December.

Jack

Did you change your handle?

Aye button, but I wouldn’t describe it as a lesser session, it’s just that anytime I have been in Hughes, things are at a more relaxed & leisurely pace in the snug, wherease the rear session seems to attract more of the big names & has usually been nipping along a little faster.
For this reason I feel more comfortable in the snug.

Maybe that is not the regular way of things though?

I know one thing, the distinction between rear & snug, certainly has nothing to do with this thread that we’re on here! 🙂

Yes Peter, I changed my “handle.” I am now calling myself the Phantom Button. I won’t bore you with the explanation except to say it’s the most profound thing to date I have learned about the concertina.

Yes Kevin, I see your distinction now, although I have seen some big names in the snug as well. My first experience out in the main room was spooky. I was in Dublin for the first time back in 1990 and I asked Noel H. where I should go for a session. He suggested Hughesez and I decided I would go there after trying that famous fish & chips place across from Christ Church. I was sitting in the Lord Edward pub sipping on a pint and the Pure Drop was on their TV. As I was leaving Paul McGrattan and Brendan Begley were playing Trip to Durrow. I walked across the Liffy to the pub, walked in and low and behold, who was playing? It was none other than Paul McGrattan and Brendan Begley themselves. And what tune were they playing? You guessed it -- Trip to Durrow. Spooky… isn’t it?

I’ve just re-read this thread and Kerri’s post stood out:
She asks me what’s the point of justifying my own unexamined animosity by pretending it’s an objective assessment of someone else’s musical potential?

Crikey

OK, I admit to a certain level of animosity, though I do examine it endlessly . It may border on the “active hatred” occasionally, but it never gets as far as “bitter hostility” (I looked it up).

Why am I like this? I suppose it’s when I meet lazy arrogant people who sport a shameless self-confidence and don’t give a “poop” what anyone thinks of their musical abilities.

This kind of attitude is fine on a stage, even desirable in some musics (punk for example), but it doesn’t sit well with traditional Irish music. And it can get really irritating in a session situation. So much so that, I’m sorry to admit, it occasionally fills me with animosity.


But, Kerri, it’s not all doom and gloom. You are quite right to point out the conundrum of my self appointed “objective omniscience”. Logic dictates that I could well be one these people I complain about, I could well be sticking myself in “the wrong pile”. Though since the whole point of this thread to to encourage people to “Out” the “No hopers”, I eagerly await said “Outing”

But you’ve got to establish the exact criteria for a no-hoper, Michael. Something that must be verifiable in test conditions.

Like, length of time it takes to learn a given tune by ear, perhaps? And since ability to improve is a criterion, it must be a series of these tests over say a year.

Oh, and intonation maybe - you’d have to test how accurately and how quickly they can tune their instruments after being given a tone at 440hz, and then measure the tuning of each note they play of the tune they’ve had to memorise.

And rhythm! Give them the beat from a metronome to start off with, and then turn it off when they start playing. What else, what else? How bout, they’re given nine reels in various keys, and they’ve got to arrange them into three sets, with acceptable key changes between tunes in each set - like a musical jigsaw puzzle.

Yeah yeah, and then slow airs --- oh, the slow airs - that’ll be a good test! And crispness of the ornamentation, for a given value of X, and bowing and phrasing and variation and embouchure and posture and round-buying and foot-tapping styles (no tapping allowed maybe?), and target practice for the hurled shakey egg, and name-dropping tests and, well, I’ve run out. What else? What else?!

You know a no-hoper when you meet one Matt, no mistake. They’re a far cry from genuine sincere learners, even just to talk to, that’s always been my experience. Quite often the vibe is about him/herself, what tunes s/he can play, etc. A *real* “learner” will be asking, asking, asking. They want to know stuff. And they listen. (Not that I have any wisdom to impart.)

If you encourage type A by teaching them a bit of technique and some new tunes every week, they will become good enough to have a wide enough repertoire that type B will get fed up and go away because they can’t play any of it.

Not bad Geof, But because type A are naturally less pushy that type B it’s often type A that lose out

Sorry, michael, if I came off prickly there. You often have a knack of touching off my pet peeves. I don’t think people have a lot of choice about what kind of personality they end up with. I’m no more able to become genuinely self-effacing and dedicated to please you than you’re able to become light-hearted, accepting and open-minded to please me.

Anyhoo, Matt, for the study to be effective it needs to be extended over a period of time equal to the participants’ entire playing life and the rates of improvement (or deterioration) compared in order to establish a reasonable rate of improvement below which people would have their instruments taken away and be sent to a roped off area near the bar if they chose to retain a love of music despite their intolerable playing.

I also strongly recommend mass sterilization of the musically hopeless to ensure their faulty genes are not passed on to future generations.

I nominate Mr. Gill as project co-ordinator, and Pingu as financial administrator once the grants start pouring in.

I like the idea of a shaky egg test. You can decide what to do with people based on their response to being handed one.

If they shake it -- immediate expulsion.

If they sit on it and try to hatch it -- compulsory quarantine and mandatory counseling.

If they take it outside and stomp on it until it breaks open and the little pellets pour out into the gutter -- a hero’s welcome.

What if they shake it sarcastically enough to illustrate that even though they are shaking the egg they really think shakey eggs are stupid? I see that one a lot. Don’t know how to take it. Yeah, granted they’re clowning around and their sole intention (presumeably) is mockery of shakey egg playing as an art form, but they’re still shaking it, aren’t they… how can we be sure they’re shaking it out of unadulterated scorn or if there’s still a residual inability not to shake the egg and the comedy routine is just a cover-up?

Shaking it even mockingly demonstrates their willingness to use it at all -- they should be considered too dangerous to be in the session.

What if they use it only to illustrate how a beer bottle cap makes for a very effective and affordable instrument stand?

If the effect is illustrated on the back of the toilet maybe.

I wish I knew what to do about the no-hoper at out session. He has *dozens* of whistles, which he spreads out across the table, as if he expects to play in every single key that night. He noodles constantly(really, *all* the freaking time!). When he “knows” a tune, he has no beat and makes many notes stretch across the beat(sometimes several beats), thus making everything sound bad. He thinks he is a professional musician. He actually wore a nametag to a festival one that said “professional musician” on it. He thinks Lunasa is the standard, and that he is the next Kevin Crawford. He’s always been like this, and always will be as far as I can tell.
The only good thing about him is that he doesn’t come every week. I don’t suppose anyone has any ideas of what I could do about him?

Seisflutes, you’ve just described my session nightmare. That little story made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

Ok, I have a suggestion, but it will only work if the rest of the session is in on it. When said delusionary whistler comes in and spreads out his whistles and begins to play -- the rest of you one by one get up and go for a breath of fresh air, get a soda, go talk somewhere else in the room etc. Leave him alone to do his noodle worshiping. If he asks, tell him he’s way beyond you guys and you’d rather just hear him play solo -- like his own professional concert. This won’t last long of course, and he’ll either pack up and leave, or he’ll insist you come back and join him. At that point you can tell him that he’ll have to change the way he participates so as not to throw-off all you non-professional musicians. Tell him that when he noodles it makes it impossible for you to play the tune. Tell him he has to play the tune itself or you’ll lose your place. Tell him noodling between tunes gives you a headache. The main point being that you’ll have him wanting you to join him, but you’ll be able to address the problems of playing along with him. If he refuses -- don’t join in with him. Easy peasy!

Hope that helps. 😉

There’s me, thinking that I might pop over to a local session to give it a try.

Sounds like it might be a pure nightmare.