Can we call variations our own tunes??????????????????

Can we call variations our own tunes??????????????????

In a discussion I submitted a month or so ago I asked if there were too many tunes that sounded the same.

Now these tunes that are in the same family as each other may sound similar but unique in some kind of way. These tunes are considered to be variations of another "root" tune but are regarded as a "tune" (if you don’t understand me I don’t blame you 🙂 ) all the same.

So if variations of a tune are regarded as a different tune altogether can we come with variations of a tune and call them by a name of our choice?

5..4..3..2..1.. DISCUSS

P.S. I’m not a cheat and going to try this i was just curious.

Cheers,

Sam

Re: Can we call variations our own tunes??????????????????

I think this comes down to naming tunes. If you don’t give them names in the first place, you won’t have the problem. But then if you don’t give them names, you won’t be able to collect them in data bases like this, and you won’t be able to write the blurb on the back of your record sleeve.

I’m being facetious, as usual, but I think my point is that the problem only arises when a tune is either claimed or catalogued. In a session situation, all is needed is the ability to keep your ear to the setting.

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Re: Can we call variations our own tunes??????????????????

Right. There’s too many different names for the same tunes anyway. You could call variations your own tune (and submit them on this site) if you want, just give them a different name.

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Re: Can we call variations our own tunes??????????????????

Intentionally calling the same tune with variations by a new name seems to me to be a recipe for confusion.

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Re: Can we call variations our own tunes??????????????????

I’ve folk-processed several tunes (intentionally and not) and at least a couple of times, when I realized how much I had changed the tune, I started calling it by a different, but similar, name. Eventually, though, I was mildly admonished for using the wrong title in one case and for playing the tune wrong in another. Two ways to lose; no way to win.

If you change anything in any tradition, eventually you’ll bump into somebody’s sense of correctness, but that’s part of how it works.

Re: Can we call variations our own tunes??????????????????

I’m confused??? In some of the tradition there are tunes named after the person that taught them the tune, so you may get 20 Paddy Faheys Reels, every one different.But you can’t claim variations as a new tune otherwise Sean Maguire would have written all his tunes.

Re: Can we call variations our own tunes??????????????????

No

Re: Can we call variations our own tunes??????????????????

It is your version of (Insert tune here) that is how I see it.

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Re: Can we call variations our own tunes??????????????????

Think you have enough question marks there?

Re: Can we call variations our own tunes??????????????????

What I want to know is, why did he decide on 18 question marks?

Why did he not go on & make it a round 20?

Is there some significance to the number 18?

I think he is probably Chinese, cause in China, the numbers 6, 8 & 9 are considered lucky & if you examine the number 18 you will notice that:

6 X 3 = 18
8 + 10 = 18
&
9 X 2 = 18

flamin fiddler, I think your cover has just been blown!

You sign off as Sam, but I think that is just a clever abreviation for ‘SAYONARA’.

You can run, but you can’t hide! 😀

Re: Can we call variations our own tunes??????????????????

I’ll give the Darwinist viewpoint on this. If a tune variant has mutated so much that it can’t be comfortably played alongside the original tune, it’s worth calling it a new tune.

This is similar to the principle of cross- fertility between variants. Modern Darwinists don’t like the word ‘species’ because the current set of forms is merely a snapshot of a dynamic process, just as our music is constantly evolving. We play today quite differently from the "old fellas" of the thirties and forties, though you’ll never find a point at which the style actually shifted.

As for claiming some kind of "possession" of them, remember that all creativity is itself algorithmic- no one ever had an idea that wasn’t based on incremental changes to ideas that had gone before, right back to the first minute chemical or electrical signal that could be considered an idea. If we play a little further, it is because we bought the CDs of giants.

Re: Can we call variations our own tunes??????????????????

It’s really hard to say. Sometimes you play the first time much the same as the well-known version, and then you keep changing the tune as you go. If you play, say, three or four "rounds" the changes may be quite big within only one performance.
Listen to this - is it still Fig For A Kiss, or yet something different?
http://www.duan.pl/numerki/Fig_for_a_kiss.mp3

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Re: Can we call variations our own tunes??????????????????

Anyway, I’m for "paying the dues" and leaving the original tune name (whatever THAT is agreed as correct)

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Re: Can we call variations our own tunes??????????????????

And there’s another interesting darwinistic parallel. Ring species. For example, the Lesser Black Backed Gull and the Herring Gull. In Western Europe, these are recognizably different species. They look and act differently and do not interbreed (producing mules if they do). But if we track the Herring Gull East across Asia to the Pacific, and track the Lesser Black Backed Gull West across the Atlantic and the Americas, we get to a place on the other side of the globe where the two birds are essentially the same species (though we don’t use the word species anymore, as mentioned in the above post). The Lesser Black Backed Gull’s wings have lightened to a dark grey, and the Herring Gull’s wings have darkened to the same grey. The birds now freely interbreed without producing mules.

I love this phenomena in tunes, and consider it a shame that widely available recordings, and data bases like this destroy it.

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Re: Can we call variations our own tunes??????????????????

By definition of your thread a variation can not be your own tune.

Variations, different settings maybe, but not your own tune.

I was fascinated by Clancy’s setting of The Dublin Reel in C, and obviously I worked at it, but the tune I produced on the flute I could never claim to own. Let’s be honest about it. I got inside the tune, already knowing the standard D setting, and also the Liverpool 4 part setting in G, but just because I worked out a playable flute in C version, that doesn’t qualify for ownership.

Maybe if some of you gifted players out there think otherwise, well you could well become a lot richer through copyright!

Brianx

Re: Can we call variations our own tunes??????????????????

A variation is a variation. I guess, eventually, if there are variations on the variations, then the tune may have changed so much, that it’s not the original tune, but to answer your first question - no.
So, I guess I’m in agreement with Paul Burke, regarding his Darwinian comment.

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Re: Can we call variations our own tunes??????????????????

ptarmigan you really can come with some wierd things as for 18 question marks - well maybe I am chinese even tho I thought i was english.

spose i can’t be cause i don speak queens english e.g.

one must go and play my totally spiffing violin

Re: Can we call variations our own tunes??????????????????

That’s ok. As long as you don’t speak Bronx English. And Brooklyn English - fuggedaboudit.