Off She Goes jig

This jig comes from a collection of New England fiddle music. It gives the impression of having been around a long time and I wonder if it comes from the same stable as Lillibullero. Does anyone know if this tune has a history?
-m

I never realized that "Humpty Dumpty" fits so well. I think I’ll try to forget because I don’t think it will increase my enjoyment of the tune!

The snippet of words that I know to this tune (the A part) are:

Off she goes to Donnybrook Fair
She has time and money to spare
Looks like rain but she does not care
Off she goes to Donnybrook Fair

I assume there must be words to the B part, too, but I don’t know them.

Sarah

I suspect there must have been some political background to this tune and the Humpty Dumpty words centuries ago. It seems the sort of thing that could have been a bit of popular doggerel celebrating someone’s (HD) come-uppance. I’ll try and see what I can find but if anyone comes up with anything I’m sure we’ll all be very grateful.
-m

For the avoidance of doubt, "HD" in my previous comment signified Humpty Dumpty!
-m

I believe I have tracked down the origin of Humpty Dumpty. It seems he was King Richard III of England, who had a humped back, according to various historical sources. I found this information in an essay on the origins of children’s nursery rhymes, which can be found at,
http://www.arts.uwaterloo.ca/ENGL/courses/engl208c/esharris.htm. One of the main sources mentioned in this essay was "Opie, Iona, and Peter, eds. The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes. New York: Oxford University Press, 1951".
-m

BTW, I think this is a single jig.

When I saw the second title for this tune I immediately knew what the melody was. Before I saw the music. I know I have heard this tune before but I did not know it as Humpty Dumpty. What I do know is that every time I heard this tune I sang the words to Humpty Dumpty to it. How did this happen? I am sure I never heard anyone sing those words to it. It does sound like a single jig.

"168 classic traditional contra dance melodies, from Batchelder’s Reel to Money Musk to Portland Fancy and beyond — the standard contra tunes in one source."

Pulled together by Randy Miller & Jack Perron, 1983 / 2nd edition 2003:

https://www.fiddlecasebooks.com/
https://www.fiddlecasebooks.com/store/c2/Books.html

~ another Randy Miller publication:
"Irish Traditional Fiddle Music"

I found it in the Athole Collection, too, reprinted 1961 and 1996 after the original 19th century plates.

The tunes are arranged for piano, but most of them in the common keys work very well for fiddle. I’ll post the ABC’s one day when I’ve got a little more time.

i love this tune when played as a single jig, tempo 120. it is shuch fun for the kids at class to dance to, because when the teacher asks them to to single jig, they know it because of humpty dumpty

There are various ideas about the Political Origins of Humpty Dumpty. The version I heard first was it was an English Civil War tune. Humpty Dumpty was a Royalist Mortar, and the biggest piece of ordinance the Royalists had. They hoisted it on top of a church tower at Great Toddington and the New Model Army managed to demolish the wall. The mortar was broken and couldn’t be fixed.

In the David Brody "Fiddler’s Fake Book" he lists this tune having an alternate name; "Lancer’s Quadrille’….mernafiddler.

Single jigs like this, way back when, were popular for the ‘Sets of Quadrilles’, such as the ‘Lanciers’ or ‘Lancers’, for one example, both sides of the Atlantic bog…

from the fiddler’s companion:
http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/OA_OG.htm#OFF_SHE_GOES_[1]

OFF SHE GOES [1] (Ta Si Ag Imteacd). AKA and see "Off She Goes for Butter and Cheese" (Pa.), "Up She Got and Off She Went" (Pa.), "Peel the Willow" (Pa.), "La Danse des Sutins" (French‑Canadian), "Lancer’s Quadrille," "The Launch," "Rustic Reel [2]," "Rustic Dance [2]." English, Irish, Scottish, American; Single Jig (6/8 time), Slide (12/8 time) and Country Dance Tune. England; Dorset, Sussex. Ireland, West Kerry. USA; New England, southwestern Pa. D Major (most versions): C Major (Cazden, Howe). Standard. AB (Kerr, Moylan): AABB (most versions). The British musicologist Chappell, writing in the 19th century, seemed to imply that Englishman George Macfarren composed this very popular tune; which is impossible, according to Bayard (1981), since it appeared in print in the Irish Murphy MS. when Macferren was age 2 (1790). The Irish uilleann piper ‘Piper’ Jackson has also been credited with the tune (by Moffat) which he supposedly wrote c. 1760, but Bayard again thinks it unlikely due to stylistic reasons (it does not sound like Jackson’s other tunes, or even particularly Irish). He concludes the composer and date of composition are still unknown, though he doubts it is older than the 1780’s. An early printing occurs in the Calvert Collection (1799), assembled by musician Thomas Calvert of Kelso, Scotland. A note with his collection states that Calvert supplied “a variety of music and instruments, instruments lent out, tun’d and repaired.”

***

“Off She Goes” was popular throughout the British Isles and North America. One unnamed source gives that in the days of sail it was a tradition for the fiddle player to sit on the deck of the ship playing “Off She Goes” as the ship departed harbor. In French-Canadian usage the melody is known as “La Danse des Sutins.” The author of English Folk-Song and Dance found the melody in the repertoire of fiddler William Tilbury (who lived at Pitch Place, midway between Churt and Thursley in Surrey), who, in his younger days, played the fiddle at village dances. Tilbury learned his repertoire from an uncle, Fiddler Hammond, who died around 1870 and who was the village musician before him. The conclusion was that “Off She Goes” and similar type country dance tunes survived in English tradition (at least in southwest Surrey) well into the second half of the 19th century. “Off She Goes” is contained in several 19th century musicians’ manuscripts, such as the Joshua Gibbons and the Joseph Kershaw manuscripts. Kershaw was a fiddler who lived in Slackcote, Saddleworth, North West England, in the 19th century, and his manuscript dates from around 1820 onwards. Gibbons was from Lincolnshire—his setting, originally appearing in the mss. in the key of ‘C’ major, has a somewhat divergent second part. See also the version in Ann Winnington’s music manuscript book (No. 16), c. 1810, wherein the frontispiece indicates she resided in New York. The melody appears in England in Thomas Wilson’s Companion to the Ballroom (1816) and in America in Riley’s Flute Melodies (1814).

***

Accordion player Jim Coogan (Neuburgh, N.Y.), himself a repository for Irish accordion lore, related this bit, in a discussion about the relative abilities of musicians to talk and play at the same time, not an easy thing to do for most:

***

Joe Mills (rip), the original accordeon player with the Aughrim Slopes Ceili Band when they started in 1932, used to tell the story about when they were playing on R2N—which radio station later became Radio Erinn and now is RTE—that they were playing a set of jigs and coming up on the turn which was to be "Off she goes" when Paddy Kelly, the fiddler looked over at Joe to find out what tune - Joe got excited and forgot the name and could only shout "feck off" - and they all immediately turned the tune and it went very well—except they forgot they were on live radio…

***

The title is among those mentioned in Patrick J. McCall’s 1861 poem “The Dance at Marley,” the first three stanzas of which goes:

***

Murtagh Murphy’s barn was full to the door when the eve grew dull,
For Phelim Moore his beautiful new pipes had brought to charm them;
In the kitchen thronged the girls - cheeks of roses, teeth of pearls -
Admiring bows and braids and curls, till Phelim’s notes alarm them.
Quick each maid her hat and shawl hung on dresser, bed, or wall,
Smoothed down her hair and smiled on all as she the bawnoge entered,
Where a shass of straw was laid on a ladder raised that made
A seat for them as still they stayed while dancers by them cantered.

***

Murtagh and his vanithee had their chairs brought in to see
The heels and toes go fast and free, and fun and love and laughter;
In their sconces all alight shone the tallow candles bright -
The flames kept jigging all the night, upleaping to each rafter!
The pipes, with noisy drumming sound, the lovers’ whispering sadly drowned,
So the couples took their ground - their hearts already dancing!
Merrily, with toe and heel, airily in jig and reel,
Fast in and out they whirl and wheel, all capering and prancing.

***

“Off She Goes,” “The Rocky Road,” “The Tipsy House,” and “Miss McLeod,”
“The Devil’s Dream,” and “Jig Polthogue,” “The Wind that Shakes the Barley,”
“The First o’May,” “The Garran Bwee,” “Tatther Jack Welsh,” “The River Lee,” -
As lapping breakers from the sea the myriad tunes at Marley!
Reels of three and reels of four, hornpipes and jigs galore,
With singles, doubles held the floor in turn, without a bar low;
But when the fun and courting lulled, and the dancing somewhat dulled,
The door unhinged, the boys down pulled for “Follow me up to Carlow.”

***

Sources for notated versions: 8 southwestern Pa. fifers and fiddlers [Bayard]; Everett Douglas [Phillips]; accordion player Johnny O’Leary (Sliabh Luachra region of the Cork-Kerry border) [Moylan]; the 1823-26 music mss of papermaker and musician Joshua Gibbons (1778-1871, of Tealby, near Market Rasen, Lincolnshire Wolds) [Sumner]. American Veteran Fifer, 1927; No. 66. Bayard (Dance to the Fiddle), 1981; No. 544A‑H, pgs. 485‑487. Brody (Fiddler’s Fakebook), 1983; pg. 204. Cazden, 1955; pg. 13. Cole (1001 Fiddle Tunes), 1940; pg. 58. DeVille (The Violin Player’s Pastime), pg. 13. Ford (Traditional Music in America), 1940; pg. 53 (appears as part of "Rustic Dance"). Gallagher (Irish Songs and Airs), No.. 11 (appears as "Off They Go"). Harding’s Original Collection (1928) and Harding Collection (1915), No. 43. Hardings All‑Round, 1905; No. 190, pg. 60 (appears as "Old Virginia Reel"). Holden (A Collection of Old Established Irish Slow and Quick Tunes), pg. 35. Howe (Complete Preceptor for the Accordeon), c. 1843; pg. 5. Howe (Musician’s Omnibus), No. 2, pg. 107. Huntington (William Litten’s), 1977; pg. 30. Jarman (Old Time Fiddlin’ Tunes), No. or pg. 18. The Joseph Kershaw Manuscript, 1993; No. 23. Kennedy (Fiddlers Tune Book), Vol. 1, 1951; No. 89, pg. 44. Kerr (Merry Melodies), Vol. 1; No. 14, pg. 29. Levey (The Dance Music of Ireland), No. 89. Mac Amhlaoibh & Durham (An Pota Stóir: Ceol Seite Corca Duibne/The Set Dance Music of West Kerry), No. 57, pg. 37 (appears as “Port Dalaig” [7]). MacDonald (The Skye Collection), 1887; pg. 175. Miller & Perron (New England Fiddler’s Repertoire), 1983; No. 35. Moylan (Johnny O’Leary), 1994; No. 98, pg. 56. O’Malley, 1919; pg. 39. O’Neill (Krassen), 1976; pg. 41. O’Neill (Music of Ireland: 1850 Melodies), 1903/1979; No. 914, pg. 170. O’Neill (Dance Music of Ireland: 1001 Gems), 1907/1986; No. 385, pg. 78. Phillips (Traditional American Fiddle Tunes), vol. 2, 1995; pg. 373. Raven (English Country Dance Tunes), 1984; pg. 101. Robbins, 1933; No. 98, pg. 31. Ryan’s Mammoth Collection, 1883; pg. 86. Saar, 1932; No. 49. Silberberg (Tunes I Learned at Tractor Tavern), 2002; pg. 108. Stewart-Robertson (The Athole Collection), 1884; pg. 137. Sumner (Lincolnshire Collections, vol. 1: The Joshua Gibbons Manuscript), 1997; pg. 18. Sweet (Fifer’s Delight), 1965/1981; pg. 28. Trim (Thomas Hardy), 1990; No. 5. Tubridy (Irish Traditional Music, Book Two), 1999; pg. 28. White’s Excelsior Collection, 1907; pg. 3. Wilson (Companion to the Ballroom), 1840, pg. 121. Antilles (Island) 7003, Kirkpatrick & Hutchings - "The Compleat Dancing Master" (1973). Folkways 8826, Per’s Four‑‑"Jigs and Reels." Folkways FG 3575, Barry, Gorman, Ennis, and Heaney‑ "Irish Music in London Pubs." Front Hall 010, Fennigs All Stars‑ "Saturday Night in the Provinces." John Edwards Memorial Foundation JEMF‑105, Everett Dwyer ‑ "New England Traditional Fiddling" (1978). Maggies Music MM-220, Hesperus – “Celtic Roots.” Topic TSCD607, Billy Cooper, Walter & Daisy Bulwer – “English Country Music” (2000. Originally recorded 1962). Topic 12T357, Johnny O’Leary - “Music for the Set” (1977).

See also listings at:

Alan Snyder’s Cape Breton Fiddle Recording Index

Jane Keefer’s Folk Music Index: An Index to Recorded Sources

X:1
T:Off She Goes [1]
M:6/8
L:1/8
S:Button & Whitaker’s Selection of Dances, Reels, Waltzes No. 1 (undated, early 19th century)
Z:AK/Fiddler’s Companion
K:D
F2A G2B|ABc d3|F2A G2B|AGF E3|F2A G2B|ABc d3|gaf g2f|edc d3:|
|:faf d2f|gbg e2g|faf d2f|gec d3|faf d2f|ege c2A|B2c d2B|gec d3:|

X:2
T:Off She Goes [1]
M:6/8
L:1/8
R:Jig
B:Stewart-Robertson – The Athole Collection (1884)
Z:AK/Fiddler’s Companion
K:D Major
A|F2A G2B|ABc d3|F2A G2B|AFD E3|F2A G2B|ABc d2e|f2d g2f|edc d2:|
|:g|f/g/af d2f|g/a/bg e2g|f/g/af d2f|ecA A2g|f/g/af d2f|g/a/bg e2g|f2d g2f|edc d2:|

X: 3
T:Off Shew Goyes
M:6/8
L:1/8
B:The Calvert Collection (1799) - Page 15
Z: AK/Fiddler’s Companion
K:D
F2A G2B|ABA [F3d3]|F2A G2B|AGF ~E3|F2A G2B|
ABA [F2d2]e|f2d g2f|edc [F3d3]||(f/g/a)f d2f|(e/f/g)e c2e|
(f/g/a)f d2f|edc [F3d3]|(f/g/a)f d2f|(e/f/g)e c2e|d2g {f/g/}a2f|gec [F3d3]||

X:4
T:Off She Goes
M:6/8
L:1/8
R:Jig
K:D
A|F2A G2B|ABc d3|F2A G2B|AFD E3|F2A G2B|ABc d2e|f2d g2f|edc d2:|
M:9/8
f2a f2d e2f |\
M:6/8
gbg efg | f2a f2d | ecA A3 |\
M:9/8
f2a f2d e2f |\
M:6/8
gbg efg | fed g2f | edc d3 :|

X:5
T:Off She Goes
M:6/8
L:1/8
R:Jig
S:Walter Bulwer (1959)
Z:AK/Fiddler’s Companion
K:G
B2d c2e|def g2d|B2d c2e|dcB A3|B2d c2e|def g3|B2G c2B|AGF G3:|
M:9/8
L:1/8
|:(B2d) B2G A2B|
M:6/8
L:1/8
c2e c2A|B2d B2G|A2F D3|
M:9/8
L:1/8
(B2d) B2G A2B|
M:6/8
L:1/8
c2e c2A|B2d B2g|A3 G3:|

And an interesting tune from Richard Robinson’s website:

http://www.leeds.ac.uk/music/Info/RRTuneBk/listings.html#winder

X:72
T:Off she goes
A:Wyresdale, Lancashire
B:H.S.J. Jackson, 1823
L:1/8
M:6/8
N:bars 6 and 12 have an accidental # marked on A, before the last c
N:(c-natural would make sense, but why write it like that ?)
O:England
Z:Richard Robinson <URL:http://www.leeds.ac.uk/music/Info/RRTuneBk/contact.html>;
%%TranscriptionNotes:Some guesswork here owing to imperfect legibility
%%TUNEURL: http://www.leeds.ac.uk/music/Info/RRTuneBk/gettune/000005bf.html
%%ID:000005bf
K:D
{c}d2B AFA | B2d A3 | B2G g2f | efd cBA | \
{c}d2B AFA | Bcd ABc | BGB cde | fge d3 ::
f2d a2f | e2c a2c | dcd fed | cde ABc | \
BGB Bcd | cAB cde | fga bgf | efd cBA !D.C.! |]

a different sensibility all together.

Whew!? ~ 😏

I just hope you aren’t planning to move all of Andrew’s and Richard’s Internet content over to the ‘Comments’ here…

There are already folks doing that with the ABC’s ~ at least you gave them credit in your cut-and-paste enthusiasm…

oh, hang me already.

On Track 26 of Vol 12 of his Dance Music of Ireland series, Matt Cunningham plays this tune as the third slide of a set of three. Slides and jigs can sometimes be interchangeable as far as set dancing is concerned.

I was really proud of myself this morning. I saw a couple of Newfie lads playing this on Youtube last night and thought it was a snappy little jig, This morning I decided to try and abc it and submit it, I did it on concertina.net and decided to do a search on the Session before submitting it, I’m glad i did.

It would have been my first abc submission. Back to the drawing board.

This tune was recorded by Quebecois fiddler Yvon Mimeault under the title "Gigue du Bonhomme".

# Posted on July 4th 2010 by Clarewoman
https://thesession.org/members/8270

"I have this version from West Clare. Sometimes it is called ‘Humpty Dumpty’ and others refer to it as ‘Pop Goes the Weasel’. It is great fun to play. Hope you can follow my poor attempt at ABC notation!! Perhaps someone could fix it for me."

& my attempt to brush up her transcription a little ~

X: 8
T: Off She Goes
T: Humpty Dumpty
M: 6/8
L: 1/8
R: single jig
K: DMaj
|: A/G/ |\
F2 A G2 B | ABc d2 A/G/ | F2 A G2 B | AFD E2 D |
F2 A G2 B | ABc d2 e | fed g2 f | edc d2 :|
|: e |\
faf def | gbg efg | faf def | eAA A2 d/e/ |
faf def | gbg efg | fed g2 f | edc d2 :|

This can also be played singly, without repeating the parts, simply AB rather than AABB…


Clarewoman had posted this in the comments for another single tune that used to sometimes get mated up with this one ~ "Pop Goes the Weasel" ~
https://thesession.org/tunes/10534/comments
That’s likely the reason for a confusion of titles between the two melodies. Both tunes were popularly used for dancing, including for specific couple dances and also for group dances… They were considered fun tunes, by both musicians and dancers, but in the modern uptight world they are often shunned. Some folks take themselves far to seriously for their own good, or for the good of the tradition…

This fecking tne is way old . I likes it muchly.

Another transcription with a 9/8 twist… Some choose to transcribe the B-part differently, for example, Pete Cooper:

|: [M: 9/8] f2 a f2 d e2 f | [M: 6/8] g2 b g2 e | f2 a f2 d | e2 c A3 | ~ etc…

~ with that 9/8 twist… Pete Cooper’s way with it:

|: [M: 9/8] B2 d B2 G A2 B | [M: 6/8] c2 e c2 A | B2 d B2 G | A2 F D3 | ~ etc…

B: "A Collection of Marches Quick Steps Strathspeys & Reels", Thomas Calvert, 1799, page 15, tune #45 Collection

Fiddle Hangout
http://www.fiddlehangout.com/
http://www.fiddlehangout.com/topic/30945
PDF by Addie, notation setup using Barfly
http://www.hangoutstorage.com/fiddlehangout.com/storage/tabs/t/tab-thomas-calvert—1709-40282027112012.pdf

B: "The Athole Collection", James Stewart Robertson, 1884, page 174

B: "O’Neill’s Music of Ireland: 1850 Melodies", 1903, page 170, tune #914

B: "A Companion to the Ballroom", Thomas Wilson, 1840, pg. 121
N: Moderato

The dance description from this collection:

SINGLE FIGURE Tune played straight thro
Cast off 2 Cu: & back again -.- & whole pussette -.-

OR THUS Hands across quite round with 2d Cu: & back again -.-
lead down the middle up again & allemande -.-

DOUBLE FIGURE Each strain repeated
Hey countrary sides -.- hey on your own sides -..- lead down the middle
up again right & left with the top Cu: -.- & swing cornders -..-

B: "Johnny O’Leary of Sliabh Luachra: Dance Music from the Cork-Kerry Border", compiled and edited by Terry Moylan, The Lilliput Press, Dublin, 1994, page 56, tune #98
ISBN: 1-874675-42-2
Z: Terry Moylan

"An Pota Stóir: Ceol Seite Corca Duibne/The Set Dance Music of West Kerry", Feargal Mac Amhlaoibh & Con Durham, page 37, tune #57

With minor corrections made, for example, the original was notated as swung 4/4 though listed as 6/8. Here are the first two bars as given in the book. A similar if minor confusion exists throughout this very interesting and valued publication:

M: 6/8 |: F>A G>B A/B/c/ d3 | F>A G>B A/G/F/ E>D | - - -

B: "Dances of Donegal", collected by Grace Orpen, D.M. Wilkie, London, 1931
The first few pages of this book, and its first tune & dance:
"The Fairy Dance" - https://thesession.org/tunes/424

Dance: Berlin Polky (Couple Dance)
Tune: "Off She Goes"

Steps - - - - - - - - - Description - - - - - - - - - Bars

Partners stand as for Corn Rigs, the man starts with his left foot, the woman with her right.

A. - - - Described for the woman.

One polka step to the right beginning with the right foot, then swing the left leg through with a straight knee, hopping

twice on the right foot. - - - 2
Repeat in the other direction. - - -2
Repeat. - - - 4
B. - - - Hold partner in waltzgrip and polka round for B music. - - - 8


<[ NOTE: While the music in this book is notated with the parts repeating (|: ~ :|), the dance description suggests that it was played fully as a ‘single’ jig, without the parts repeating, as for another single jig couple dance I know, ‘The Marine’: https://thesession.org/tunes/3370 … I also know a polka version of this, with variations, called "The Kickin’ Polka", and the styling for that easily fits this as danced to a single jig. ]>

B: "Dances of Donegal", collected by Grace Orpen, D.M. Wilkie, London, 1931
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
(page 31 - music notation & dance description - last entry)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

ITMA: Irish Traditional Music Archive/Taisce Cheol DÚchais Éireann
http://www.itma.ie/
Grace Orpen’s Local Donegal Dances, 1931
http://www.itma.ie/digitallibrary/print-collection/donegal-dances-1931
"Dances of Donegal" collected and edited by Grace Orpen, 1931
Click on ‘32 Pages’ to view them, with Grace Orpen’s ‘Figures’/illustrations…
http://www.itma.ie/digitallibrary/book/dances-of-donegal

Hi C - hope you are well - thank you for this interesting link - just noticed the Flowers of Edinburgh under the title the Irish Reel, but which I think is the dance rather than an alternative tune title

Edgar, that would be my suspicion as well, but the title was given for both the dance and the tune. However, as explained elsewhere, there were some obvious confusions in titling from the original publication. However, it is always smile raising to find old collections where some well established Scottish tune is listed as ‘an Irish tune’, or ‘an Irish reel’… ‘Reel’, also said elsewhere, and you’ll know, in the earliest usages I know, was in reference to dance before it became associated with a tune form, a ‘dance’ tune form…

Between friends… 😉

I must be tired, one too many howevers… 😏

Such an intuitive little jig! If you’ve heard it once, you know it forever.

Setting as played at the Golden Guinea pub session, Bristol, UK.

This is the version of Off She Goes I’m most familiar with in Newfoundland. It doesn’t sound like the above listings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9xt2tgv8Og

play video

I don’t see that as a "version" of the jig "Off She Goes", Ryan, more a different tune completely which just happens to share the same name. Very good playing there, keep it up !
Incidentally, when I was at Hammy Hamilton’s "Flute Cruinniu" in Ballyvourney a few years ago, he played some tunes which he said he learned in Newfoundland. They were a type of tune called "singles", which were a bit like fast polkas. Do you play any of those ? I really liked the ones I heard him play.

Here’s the tune Ryan Menchion was looking for:
https://thesession.org/tunes/20282

As for Kenny’s question, here’s a recording of Hammy Hamilton playing a few Newfoundland singles:
https://www.itma.ie/digital-library/sound/miners-hat-hamilton/

You may notice that the first part of the tune is Humpty Dumpty but this is actually a two part jig, well single jig but that wasn’t an option.