T: Difyrrwch Gwyr Llangallo
|:B/c/|dBG dBG|dBG G2c/d/|ecA ecA|ecA A2B/c/|
dBG dBG|dBG G2F/G/|AFD DEF|GBd G2:|
|:B/c/|dBG dBG|gec e2A/B/|cAF cAF|dBG B2B/c/|
dBG dBG|gec e2d/c/|BdB cAF|GBd G2:|
Also known as Cylch Y Cymru, The Delight Of The Men Of Coychurch, Difyrrwch Gŵyr Llangrallo, Dyfyrwch Gwŷr Llangrallo.
There are 2 recordings of this tune.
Difyrrwch Gwyr Llangallo has been added to 8 tunebooks.
A traditional Welsh dance tune.
The title translates roughly as: “The Delight of the Men of Llangallo”.
But where is Llangallo?
From the following link, it would appear that Llangallo is situated near the village of Moelfre, on the east coast of Anglesey, N. Wales.
“The village of Moelfre on Anglesey’s east coast in one of Wales’s most reknowned maritime communities. In this volume, the sea-faring history of Moelfre and the parish of Llangallo in the two centuries between 1750 and 1970 is outlined”.
However, on the Ordnance Survey map, the village near Moelfre is given as “Llanallgo” not “Llangallo”.
So which is correct? Can anyone tell me?
Llanallgo is the place on Anglesey. I suggest that the error lies in the tune name. Try “Difyrrwch Gwyr Llangrallo”.
Thanks Weejie - but I think you’re on the wrong track. Firstly, I’m 99% certain that the correct title is “Difyrrwch Gŵyr Llangallo”
Secondly, Apart from the link that I cited, several other links also refer to “Llangallo” (near Moelfre) - are they all wrong?
I think that it needs someone with local knowledge to supply the answer …
“I think that it needs someone with local knowledge to supply the answer …”
Well, I used to drive a truck through Lanallgo every fortnight, and the road signs said “Llanallgo”. Is that local enough? It is possible that the name changed, but “Llangallo” gives 195 hits on Google and “Llanallgo” gives 60,900 results. Moreover, if you google “Difyrrwch Gwyr Llangrallo”, you actually get 507 results, and links to a recording by a Welsh harpist and a Welsh tune site. If you google “Difyrrwch Gwyr Llangallo ”, you get 6 hits, 5 of them link to ABC notation sites and one to a string quartet site.
Then you ask “which one is correct” when it’s a choice between the Ordnance Survey (who regularly revise their maps) and the few sites that use the other form.
I’m not saying that your title is wrong, I’m just suggesting that it is, given the evidence. I research tunes as part of my livelihood, so I’m not all that bad at it.
But go ahead and believe that the OS map is wrong and ABC tune sites are right if it makes you feel better.
I used to drive a truck through “Llanallgo”. See how easy it is to make a typo?
The saint associated with Llanallgo is St Gallgo, or Gallgof, son of Caw and brother of Eigrad. You can read about the history of Llanallgo here:
Now, has the site run by the parish of Llanallgo got it wrong too?
Ceolachan submitted a recording Dyfyrwch Gwŷr Llangrallo as the first track. Perhaps he would be so kind as to see if it is the same tune.
Ceolachan also submitted this recording, with “ Difyrrwch Gwŷr Llangrallo” on track 8:
Looking through the entries for “Llangallo”, many of them are obvious errors (they even resolve when you open the page), but it is possible that some may use that name - “Gallgo” has been modified to “Allgo”, so it might just be that some have modified it to Gallo. However, your original question - “so which is correct?” - has virtually been answered. The OS map is correct - by majority.
The question now is whether the location mentioned in the tune is accurate or whether it’s the result of an error.
Yep! This is the same tune as played by Delyth Jenkins - Difyrrwch Gwŷr Llangrallo. You can hear it on iTunes - it plays enough on the preview to confirm it. So, it’ looks like this is a tune from South Wales - Llangrallo (Coychurch in English) - or at least a tune celebrating the “gaeity - or amusement of the men of Llangrallo”.
It’s track 9 on the iTunes recording - with The Cuckoo’s Nest (Nyth y Gôg).
‘“Llangallo” gives 195 hits on Google and “Llanallgo” gives 60,900 results’
If ’“Llangallo” was indeed an earlier name for the village in Anglesey, you wouldn’t expect many to get many hits with an Internet search, so in itself that doesn’t really prove anything.
I spent many years in NW Wales, and I know of many instances of place name changes.
For example, there is a vlllage about 5 miles south of Caernarfon which was known until the nineteenth century as “Llantwrog Uchaf” (roughly translated as the upper dwelling of Saint Tywrog).
Then the non-conformist ministers arrived and - finding the place to be ungodly - built a chapel and renamed the village with a biblical name: “Caesarea”.
This name sustained until the early 1990s when the Welsh Language Society got involved, and decided that the village should have a proper Welsh name, and (presumably being ignorant of the original name) they came up with “Y Fron” (roughly translated as “the breast of a hill”).
Then the council came along and changed the road sign at one end of the village, but the omitted to change the sign at the other end, and it was not until several years afterwards did that one get changed.
… And on some maps, the name of this village is given as “Llandwrog”
… and the last time I was there, some local wag/vandal had added a “T” to the sign, making it Y-Front!
In years gone by, Ordnance surveyors always consulted local people before annotating place names on maps. They don’t bother doing this any more - they just take it from the road signs erected by the local authority.
Do the local authorities always get it right - I don’t think so! Not far from Y Fron is the village of Carmel (still with its 19th C Biblical name). When the council officials visited, it seems they failed to spot that, but they did spot one street name which wasn’t Welsh. So this street same was subsequently changed to a “Welsh” version of the name (at council taxpayers expense). Then an elderly resident wrote to the council pointing out that the street was named after an Italian prime minister who had visited the village in the 1930s. Egg on face! So, again at council taxpayers expense, the sign was changed back again!
And here’s the most infamous example of a cock-up with a street sign in Wales:
I’m thinking now that “Llangallo” was perhaps an older name for the Anglesey village - but I don’t really know, and neither do you. As I said before, it needs an definitive answer from someone with local knowledge - driving a truck through the place once a fortnight doesn’t really count …
Regarding the links that I cited, and would have thought that the Archive Wales one would be particularly reliable:
I do agree of course your AKA “Difyrrwch Gwyr Llangrallo” is perfectly valid … and that the tune therefore *might* be from South Wales and not Anglesey …
Finally - just curious - how did you get from “driving a truck” to researching tunes for a livelihood?
“ and that the tune therefore *might* be from South Wales and not Anglesey …”
There is no evidence whatsoever that it comes from Anglesey.. However, there is reasonably strong evidence that it comes from Glamorgan - two recordings on a Welsh label, and an extant place to tally with the title.
“Regarding the links that I cited, and would have thought that the Archive Wales one would be particularly reliable”
Non sequitur. Anyone is capable of a typographical error.
“In years gone by, Ordnance surveyors always consulted local people before annotating place names on maps. They don’t bother doing this any more - they just take it from the road signs erected by the local authority.”
This old map spells it “Llanalthgo”
This one too:
This one spells it Llanallgo:
This one too:
Nevertheless, the OS don’t seem to make too many errors, and when the parish website uses the conventional spelling, it does seem that this is indeed the name of the village - also the saint who gave his name to the chapel should be a clue.
Let’s just face it, Mix. The tune is not likely to be from Ynys Môn.
The parish website gives the tune title is ambiguous. Both the tune and location are highly questionable. You are clutching at straws.
“Finally - just curious - how did you get from ”driving a truck“ to researching tunes for a livelihood?”
There appears to be a hint of snobbery there. During my teenage years, I lived on Penrhyn Llŷn - I also drove a truck. People do move on you know. I moved on to a musical career. It’s about time you moved on from this belief that the tune comes from the north. Incidentally, where did you get the tune? How reliable is your source?
Perhaps a lesson to learn is not to discount that 1% of certainty.
“The parish website gives the tune title is ambiguous.”
That was an example of typographival error.
“The parish website suggests that the place doesn’t exist and the tune title is ambiguous”.
Oh for an edit facility on this site!
The first source is identical to the transcription given here, and the second only has the one variant of B/c/ instead of c/d/ for the second bar. Both of these had exactly the same suggested chords…
T: Difyrrwch Gwyr Llangallo
B: “Dawnsie Twmpath” by Eddie Jones, Y Lolfa, 1987, page 16
T: Difyrrwch Gwyr Llangrallo
T: The Delight of the Men of Coychurch
B: “Blodau’r Grug: 100 Popular Welsh Folk Dance Tunes”,
selected and arranged by Alex Hamilton,
revised by Robin Huw Bowen, Cymdeithas Ddawns Werin Cymru/ The Welsh Folk Dance Society, 1992, page 19, dance/tune #31
|: B/c/ |\
“G” dBG dBG | dBG G2 B/c/ | “Am” ecA ecA | ecA “D” A2 B/c/ |
“G” dBG dBG | dBG G2 F/G/ | “D” AFD DEF | “G” GBd G2 :|
|: B/c/ |\
“G” dBG dBG | “C” gec e2 A/B/ | “D7” cAF cAF | “G” dBG B2 B/c/ |
“G” dBG dBG | “C” gec edc | “G” BdB “D7” cAF | “G” GBd G2 :|
The dance they were suggested for in the above sources was also the same - “Cylch y Cymru” / “The Welsh Council”
I’d promised Jeremy I’d temper my addition of Welsh tunes here, so had put this one on hold with many others.
“Hint of snobbery?” - far from it! I’ve done many things in my own life, ranging from plastering walls to writing software. And I’ve the greatest respect for anyone who can drive a truck - especially one of those HGV class II jobbies. I couldn’t do it.
I worked for OS in the 1960s, and asking the locals was the rule back then. My son works for OS, and it was he who told me that they just get the names from the road signs now.
Regarding my source for the tune. Way back in the early 1980s our ceildh band sometimes worked with a Welsh caller. He always complained that we never played any Welsh tunes - to which we replied that we didn’t know any - at least, not any dance tunes. His response to that was provide me with a whole bunch of them (dots) at a subsequent gig. We lost touch with him soon after that. I also lost his pile of tunes - along with with my large collection of old tunebooks and other sources.
This week I was having a clearout of my attic and to my surprise found an old suitcase containing everything which I thought was lost - including those Welsh tunes.
FYI - Other interesting re-found musics included:
- Ellis’s Thorough School for the Five String Banjo
- Camerons Banjo Tutor
(Both undated, but I would guess circa 1900)
- The Scottish Student’s Song Book (dated 1891)
Cylch y Cymru“ / ”The Welsh Council"
- I’ve danced that one - it’s a circle dance, as you might guess from the title.
- Oh - and I didn’t realise that posting a Welsh tune here was a hanging offence 🙁
(I quite like this particular one)
“I worked for OS in the 1960s, and asking the locals was the rule back then. My son works for OS, and it was he who told me that they just get the names from the road signs now.”
That’s interesting, because up here in Scotland, there is a body called “Registers of Scotland ” who work closely with the OS and notify them through specific forms etc of new builds and developments. The OS also do “sweeps” (usually aerial photography) and significant changes are noted (less significant changes are carried over to the next revision period) after comparison with tiles from previous revisions. All new builds that are noted are then applied to the tiles. The RoS have forms to notify the OS of any errors and they ensure that title deeds etc are consistent with the OS revisions (this includes spelling and house numbering etc). It is vital that planning authorities and lawyers etc have accurate plans to work from and this kind of coordination is vital. The idea that the OS simply work from road signs does not really tally with the complex system that operates in Scotland, and it’s hard to believe that things are so different in other parts of the UK.
“Cylch y Cymru” / “The Welsh Council” - we two too - danced, taught and called it yn Gymraeg… 😎
Also appreciating good maps…
There is something similar in England - but it works at local authority level - not at national level. The system would be used to supply information about developments that required planning permission, such as housing estates etc. But of course, not all developments require planning permission, and lost of other things don’t get notified.
For example, by Act of Parliament, all RUPPs (Roads used as public paths) were supposed to be re-classified as Restricted Byways by May 2006. But only the other day I saw a RUPP sign (in a prominent place, right by a main road) when walking in North Somerset.
Ordnance maps are good certainly - perhaps the best in the world. But nothing’s perfect, and they do contain errors. Some of these errors go uncorrected for years.
And not everything on maps is “official”. If you have access to old OS maps of mountainous areas and you examinine then very carefully, you will find instances of the draughtmens’ initials skilfully incorporated within the rock hachures!
“Ordnance maps are good certainly - perhaps the best in the world. But nothing’s perfect, and they do contain errors. Some of these errors go uncorrected for years.”
Perhaps, but I think it is firmly established that the parish in Anglesey is call Llanallgo - and, looking at those maps, it has been called Llanallgo since at least the 16th century.
I have traced the tune with the spelling “Llangallo” to “Alawon fy Ngwlad”, a collection in two volumes published in 1896 by Nicholas Bennett (1823 - 1899) of Trefglwys in Powys, Mid Wales. Unfortunately, he doesn’t supply any notes about the tune, but I do notice that he spells “difyrrwch” as “difyrwch”, and is consistent with that spelling throughout his work. It may be that this spelling was frequent in his day (though I’ve checked with a dictionary from 1828 and it’s spelled as it is today). The collection is very much consistent with others of that period, being set for “harp or pianoforte” and harmonised as you would expect in the Victorian era. So, could Bennett have dropped an ‘r’ in Llangrallo or did he mean Llanallgo? It does seem that he is a bit loose with his ’r’s! The fact that others have attributed the tune to Llangrallo does suggest I was not on the wrong track. And, without doubt Llanallgo was known as such in 1896, when Bennett published his work. Interestingly, a chapter in “The Uncommercial Traveller” by Charles Dickens relates to his visit to Anglesey to investigate the wreck of The Royal Charter in 1859, an extract reads:
“Without the name of the clergyman to whom--I hope, not without carrying comfort to some heart at some time--I have referred, my reference would be as nothing. He is the Reverend Stephen Roose Hughes, of Llanallgo, near Moelfra, Anglesey. His brother is the Reverend Hugh Robert Hughes, of Penrhos, Alligwy.”
Who needs to double and ‘r’ when it is spoken that way anyway. 😉
Those mistakes on maps are all part of the challenge, but they have gotten me in a fe fixes over time, such as with unexpected cliffs and other unclear hazards…. I think the best approach is to not depend completely on maps or SatNavs, to not surrender ones senses completely, including ones eyes and common sense…
“Alawon fy nGwlad” - damn! Now where did I put that? 😀
“Who needs to double and ‘r’ when it is spoken that way anyway”
Possibly the same people who need to use the improved capital in “nGwlad”, rather than the commonly adopted “Ngwlad”, when it’s spoken the same either way!
Well, I’m glad that I dug that book out. It contains a version of “Y Dydd Cyntaf o Awst” - a hornpipe (I remember it used for a song about Huw Puw). It goes quite nicely with a Danish sønderhoning called “Den Første August” (there are structural similarities too) - and the remarkable thing is, the titles are the same! Good for a Lammas set…..
The Welsh tune can be found here:
And the Danish tune here:
Even stronger similarities between “Y Dydd Cyntaf o Awst” and the sønderhoning called “For at være som man bør” (for to be where one should) - this is the version from Peter Uhrbrand’s book, and the one you would most likely hear on Fanø (not the version Ceolachan found):
T:For at være som man bør
AA/G/ FA/B/|BB A2|BB/c/- cc|dA/G/ FA|
A/>B/A/G/ FA|BB A2|BB cc|d2d2|:ff/e/ dd/f/|
ge c2|ee/c/ dB|B2A2|AA/G/ FA|BB A2|BB cc|d2d2:|
Yep, this should be in its own wee thread - but……
Ahh….I’ve turned up some more examples of the August tune - it deserves a listing in its own right. I’ll work on it. It appears to originate in Sweden and has versions in Playford.
And it’s already here - I’ll add to that thread.
I await further links and developments…
It’s my Welsh family, native speakers that they are, and ‘teachers’ a few, that sometimes get on my case about the placement of the capital… 😀 As you so well summed it up, it sounds the same either way…