Tommy Peoples’ mazurka

Since many mazurka’s in the Irish trad repertoire don’t have official names, I wonder how these postings will link to recordings. You can hear this tune, however, on Kevin Crawford’s “In Good Company” cd, played with Tommy Peoples (track 15) in a set of mazurkas.

Nice post C!

I learned this tune many years ago from a fiddle playing friend from Clare. He got it from Tommy Peoples. I don’t know if it was composed by Tommy Peoples but I suspect so.
Will,
As you can see many of the links to recordings will be spurious owing to the title. The same applies to Sonny’s mazurka (a.k.a. Vincent Campbell’s, a.k.a. any Donegal fiddler you can think of). Three gold stars to anyone who wants to do the research!

I learny this mazurka from Tommy Peoples’ fiddle tutor book some years ago - it was titled Doherty’s mazurka suggesting that it may have originally come from the great Donegal fiddler, Johnny Doherty.

Thanks for the name, Bannerman. I hope my setting wasn’t too far off the mark.

I’ve seen this mazurka, and a similar one in G, attributed to Phroinsias O’Maonaigh. Don’t know if he is responisble for them or not, but they work great together and we often play them as part of a set. I picked them up from “Fiddlesticks, ITM from Donegal” CD Nimbus 5320, track 13.

I can post the transcription from that performance (it’s slightly different from this posting), and the second mazurka if anyone’s interested.

ScottC

I’d be interested in the “Fiddle Sticks” Version, How about everyone else?

I posted the first mazurka from Fiddlesticks (variation of the one listed here) as Phroinsias’ Mazurka#1. Will post the second one tomorrow. I think I found these transcriptions somewhere on the web after I learned the tunes from the CD, and they are both very close, if not identical, to the recording.

K: Dmaj
DF|:“D”AF A2dc|“G”BG B2ed|“A”cB c2BA|“D”F2F2DF|“D”AF A2dc|“G”BG B2ed|
“A”cB c2BA|[1“D“d2d2DF:|[2“D“d2d2fg||“D”af d2A2|“G”c2B2ef|“A”ge c2A2|
“D”Bc A2fg|“D”af d2A2|“G”c2B2ef|“A”gecABc|[1“D“d2d2fg:|[2“D“D2D4|]

This is a variant of the Tommy Peoples mazurka.
As Scott mentioned elswhere it appears on track 13 of “Fiddlesticks - Irish Traditional Music from Donegal” (Nimbus NI1752) played by M�ir�ad N� Mhaonaigh and Proinsias O’Maonaigh where it is the first in a set simply entitled “Two Mazurkas”
The Ds in the final bar should, I think, be an octave higher.

Second of these two mazurkas is posted. Also, my red-faced apologies to Jeremy for including a number in the title on the first one, which he had to strip out.

Correction Nimbus NI 5320 (NI1752 is the boxed set “From a Distant Shore” Irish & Cape Breton Traditional Music of which Fiddlesticks is CD #1)

Here’s this one played with an emphatic Varsovienne definition/phrasing, the ‘long’ and the ‘short’ of it:

|:DF A2 A2|dc B2 B2|ef ge cA|Bc B2 A2|
DF A2 A2|dc B2 B2|ef ge cA|Bc d2 d2:|

|:fg af dF|Ad c2 B2|
ef ge cA|Bc B2 A2|
fg af dF|Ad c2 B2|
ef ge cA|Bc d2 d2:|

& some variants:

A-part, bars 1-4:

|:DF AD FA|dc BE GB|ef (3gfe cA|Bc (3BcB A2| -

|:DF AD FA|dc BE GB|ed (3cdc (3BcB|AE F2 F2| -

A-part, second ending:

- |1 Bc d2 d2:|2 Bc d2 de||

B-part, with triplets and second ending:

|:fg af dF|Ad c2 B2|ef ge cA|Bc (3BcB A2|
fg af dF|Ad (3cdc B2|ef (3gfe cA|1 Bc d2 de:|2 Bc d2 D2||

Vs & Ms - See Jackie Donnan’s for something else about this close relationship, the rough and the smooth…

I admit being a mongrel, ragged and all bark and no bite, and I’ve played some Northern European members of these forms as well as even Polish, including dancing them, from the aristocratic and military ball forms to those from the countryside. I’ve also lived and worked in Eire, though I wish I were still there, and I’ve danced and played these there with those more tied into this history than I, by their grace and humour, dance and music, North, South, East and West…

There’s a passion to share this with others, but there will always be me in the way. If I could I would transport you to those sources rather than me. Sadly, they are no longer around and I find myself, with whatever my failings are, a connection to their greater wealth, understanding and charm. I can only hope I’ve given some of that and you find it valuable. I do try to filter out as much as I can of myself, but that really is impossible to do completely, as it is in Journalism or any writing. Best

K:D

|:D>F|A2 F>A d>c|B2 G>B e>f|g>e c2 A2|B>A F2 D>F|
A2 F>A d>c|B>G B2 e>f|g>e c>g f>e|d4:|
|:f>g|a>f d>F A>d|(3cdc B2 e>f|g>e c>A B>c|(3BcB A2 f>g|
a2 f>d A>d|c2 B2 e>f|g>e c>g f>e|1 d3 e:|2 d4||

#1 in a set of 3:
w/ some other variations incorporated -
|:F>G A>F A2|d>c B>^A B2|ed c>^B c2|(3ABc d>e f2|
F>G A2 A2|d>c B2 B2|e>d c2 c2|(3ABC d2 d2:|
|:f>g a>f d>e|d>c B2 G2|e>d c2 c2|(3ABc d2 d2|
f>g a>f d>e|d>c B2 G2|e>d c>^B c2|(3ABc d2 d2:|

2.) https://thesession.org/tunes/3499

3.) https://thesession.org/tunes/3293

To add to confusions in names (polkas/barndances) Mazurkas were sometimes referred to by other names, including ‘Polka-Mazurka’ (a particular couple dance, another mazurka variation), ‘Polkas’ and ‘Polkies’.

Is this really on the Joannie Madden CD? The link to “Johnny Doherty’s” in the discography goes to a completely different tune.

T: ‘Two Mazurkas - #1’
S: Proinsias O Maonaigh/Mairead Ni Mhaonaigh
S: Fiddle Sticks CD, Nimbus NI 5320, 1991
K: Dmaj

|: DF |
AF A2 dc | BG B2 ed | cB c2 BA | FE F2 DF |
AF A2 dc | BG B2 ed |c2 cA Bc | d3 d :|
|: ef |
af d3 A | c3 B ef | ge c3 A | Bc A A ef |
af d3 A | c3 B ef | ge cA Bc | d3 d :|

they follow it with another in G, I’d like to transcribe it, too, unless it’s already here?

yup. and the one in G right here

https://thesession.org/tunes/1332

they make a nice set, very melody driven, not too many frills.

Go here for a varsovienne take on this *with a name*! https://thesession.org/tunes/3298.

Just checking,

is this the same tune as the Comhaltas Foinn #1 book’s John Doherty’s?

Excuse my 2 cents but ceol and gravel walks seem to be the only two who understand mazurkas. The strong beat in mazurkas is beat # 2 (more rarely 3) so the settings that start with a pick-up are rhythmically wrong. They essentially turn this tune into a waltz. Waltzes are fine but this tune is a mazurka.

#

“so the settings that start with a pick-up are rhythmically wrong”

Yep, the second beat is usually the accented one, but that does not preclude an anacrusis.
Look at Chopin’s settings of mazurkas. He knew about them. Some do some don’t.

Yes Weejie, I am very familiar with Chopin’s mazurkas, also Szymonowski’s and a bunch of others. And I realize that mazurkas can start with an anacrusis. But the first two settings, the ones I was referring to, clearly should have the bar line moved over one beat and start on the downbeat.

I think you are confused with “rhythm” and convention. I don’t think this tune could easily be mistaken for a waltz. Convention might also make people think that 3/4 means waltz time, but there are many other tunes set in 3/4 - Polskor, retreat marches etc. If you saw a piece of 3/4 music that didn’t indicate it was a mazurka, how would you know where to place the stress? Perhaps the convention of placing barlines in mazurkas is the confusing part, and possibly misplaced.
There are many mazurkas in Swedish music, for example, that could easily be mistaken for polskor from notation (until the clichéd hambo-masurka crotchet minim ending appears). Play that tune in Voss or Bergen in Norway, and they might call it a polka (the Norsk masurka is a different beast).
What I’m saying is that people notating Irish mazurkas here the way they do, might not be clueless as to what a mazurka is but merely not understand the convention in notation. It wouldn’t be the first time that dancers and those notating tunes were at odds with each other.
Look at Ceol’s setting 4 - James Byrne’s. No way that could be a waltz, but the notation doesn’t follow the convention.
Methinks thou dost protest too much.

https://thesession.org/tunes/2320#comment81781 (there is another with the emphasis more on mazurkas but I can’t find it just now)

Good point Weejie-I’m probably more hung up on the niceties of notation than I need to be.

At the same time, if you try this experiment: at the piano, play the first setting as written, with the right hand playing the melody, and the left hand playing a simple “oom-pa-pa” accompaniment, then do the same, but moving the bar line over to start on the downbeat, the difference is instructive-waltz vs. mazurka.

I have this as The Donegal mazurka, which our trio has always played in D. Can’t remember where we had it from, but we’ve known it a long time. We play it in a set in between Charlie Lennon’s and Sonny’s Mazurka. Our two-part arrangements for each of these are in the tune library at: http://www.rudemex.co.uk/library/RM_arrangements/01tunelib_RMarr.php

Learned this off the Tommy Peoples’ album Fiddler’s Fancy. He plays it in G on that recording and refers to it as John Doherty’s. Seeing as TP refers to it as such, I’m personally inclined to call it that as well. It gets a little more confusing though cause on the JD album “The Star of Donegal”, he plays a tune very similar (though perhaps different enough to be separate) and refers to it as “Kitty’s Fancy”. Name confusion aside, this is a very fun tune to play and I love giving it lots of snap and bounce.

Here’s how I learned John Doherty’s mazurka from Frances Marriott.

Am I right in thinking that two quite different tunes have got mixed together under this entry?

They all sound pretty much the same to me, Edgar, just with slight melodic variations. Jeremy’s setting is pretty much how I play it, except that I play two D crotchets (like you have) rather than a minim to finish.

I can’t agree with you on your bar line placement. The fact that you have your chords changing consistently on the second beat of the bar must tell you something. Also, all the (strong) crotchet notes are now on the third beat instead of the strong second beat.

Hi DonaldK - interesting - I don’t hear the third beat crotchets as strong, I hear the second beat as strong - maybe it’s just me

Here’s roughly how I’m playing this mazurka on mandolin, using double stops to help bring out the second beat of each bar (assuming that the first two notes are indeed before the first bar line, which makes sense to me). This is pretty much the same setting as Jeremy posted (X:9) a while back.
I’m playing this with swing (I picked the tune up from Fiddlers’ Bid on “Around The World”: https://thesession.org/recordings/7561).

Hi DonaldK - this is fascinating - we have two very different styles of tune from the same notes depending on where we pick the main beat to emphasize. I hesitate to get into a ‘which is right’ discussion but I think I need to go back to a few recordings to decide what I think. I used to have some old Donegal fiddle cds but I think I’ve lost them. With luck there will some reasonable stuff on YouTube. My only reference for this particular mazurka was that I was taught it in a workshop by an Irish banjo player (nearly 20 years ago). This discussion is wider than this one particular tune so I may ‘recreate’ it as a proper ‘Discussion’ when I have got my thoughts together