Little Katie Taylor reel

This is the unnamed reel Songer is hoping to develop information on, as transcribed from Horse With A Heart. It’s the last tune in a set: The Curlew, McDermott’s, Three Scones of Boxty, and this nameless reel.

Alan Ng’s web stie says this tune doesn’t exist in any of the printed sources he has (a substantial collection), and I found no matches for it on JC’s Tunefinder.

Anyone recognize it, or have a name to pin on it?

Regardless, it’s a fun tune, classic Altan (in this case, Mairead with Paul O’Shaughnessy on twin fiddles, and some cranking, barking flute from the late great Frankie Kennedy). I hear strong echoes in it of Miss Glavin’s--perhaps a Donegal setting?

Pat Higgins has cleared this one up for us. It’s The Landsdowne Lass, composed by Co. Sligo flute and whistle player Josie McDermott.

Sorry, guys. I think you’re wrong. The fourth reel ( un-named ) on Altan’s “Curlew” set, I have always known as “Little Katie Taylor”, I believe a composition of the late Limerick/London flute-player Paddy Taylor. This is the tune which you’ve posted, Will and LKT is the name given to it in “Bulmer & Sharpley’s” Vol 3.
Now the “Landsdowne Lass”, indeed composed by Josie McDermott, appears on 2 recordings I have - Seamus Egan’s first, and John Wynne’s CD. I’ve just listened to both recordings, and it is a completely different tune from the one posted.
If anyone can check , I’ve a feeling “Deanta” recorded it as well.
To make matters even more confusing - although we should be getting used to it by now - the order of the reels on Seamus Egan’s recording is wrong. “Lansdowne Lass” is played first, but called the “Baltimore Salute”. If the second reel is the “Baltimore Salute”, it sounds very similar to “Little Katie Taylor”, especially the first part which is almost identical !!! ARGGGH.

Just for the record, I’ve also seen this tune wrongly listed as ‘The Three Scone’s of Boxty’, on a recording of concertina player Simon Thoumire with Ian Carr.

I have two settings of this tune in abc collections downloaded from the web (notoriously unreliable), both of which call it ‘The Landsdowne Lass’, one of which cites Josie McDermott as its composer.

Well, I’m happy to see it go back to gan ainm, since my only reference for it being Landsdowne Lass is from Henrik’s Norbeck’s web site. That’s not proof in my book.

Kenny (or anyone), any other sources for the title as Little Katie Taylor?

Then again, I’m just happy that all this spurred me to go listen to Altan again….

Your posting Will -recorded as“Katie Taylor” by “Providence” and Turlough Boylan.

Katie Taylor was Paddy

So does she live in Landsdowne? ;o)

Apologies for mistake - This tune , Will, is in “Bulmer & Sharpley’s Vol. 4” as “Mick O’Connor’s” - banjo, London. He was the source. There are several comments about this tune, referring to the B&S collection, in Nigel Gatherer’s website, and they all call this tune “Landsdowne Lass”. I still think they’re all wrong. I learned the above version of the tune - more or less - in 1977 from Desi Wilkinson when we raked about the highlands of Scotland for about 10 days. I don’t recall that he had a name for it, and in fact I don’t recall where I got the name of Katy Taylor for it either.It was a popular tune in Belfast at that time.
( Incidentally, it was invariably followed by “The Three Scones Of Boxty” ). According to two of the contributers to NG’s site, Josie McDermott composed “The Lansdowne Lass” in 1984 when he visited Philadelphia. The Lansdowne Lass, by the way , is Seamus Egan’s mother. Therefore Belfast musicians had been been playing this tune for seven years before the LL was composed. I’m sure that the confusion is arising from Seamus Egan’s recording. The tune the LP lists as “Lansdowne Lass” has an almost identical first part to KT, but the second part is significantly different.
To summarise, I have 2 recordings of this tune named “Katie Taylor”, - composed by Paddy Taylor, and 3 recordings of “The Lansdowne Lass” - composed by Josie McDermott - as a different reel altogether. Interestingly, John Wynne has recorded them both, agreeing with the names I believe to be correct.

Therefore, Katie Taylor is not Seamus Egan

Not quite, murfbox - Seamus Egan’s mother does. Pay attention, boy !

Kenny - Mick O’Connor has a session down the road from me. I’ll see what info I can get out of him regarding this tune.

David, that’d be great to hear from one of the possible sources himself.

I corrected the abcs for that doublestop in the B part…should be d and D, not d and A (duh). That’s how Altan stomps it on the fiddles….

Please do that, David

Whew! This seems to be getting more complicated. A summary:
Two separate tunes have been titled Lansdowne Lass--one recorded by Altan, and one recorded by Seamus Egan among others. The tune in question here is the Altan tune and is most likely not Lansdowne Lass. A Web search for Little Katie Taylor shows a couple of recordings with tunes of that title. Kenny, is the Little Katie Taylor on your recordings the same tune as on Horse with a Heart?

It is the same tune as in B&S titled Mick O’Connor’s. A Web search of that title turns up several tunes by that name--a couple of other reels, as well as the tune in question with B&S listed as the source.

Am I right in assuming we’re now down to deciding whether the tune is Little Katie Taylor by Paddy Taylor or Mick O’Connor’s by ??? I will be very interested in what Mick has to say. Thanks again.

Susan Songer

I doubt very much if Mick had anything to do with the birth of this tune -- it has all the hallmarks of a McDermott composition - don’t ask me what those are - it has the McDermott “feel” to it. A great tune anyway, but I really like Seamus Egan’s whistle version. (***THEY ARE BOTH THE SAME TUNE is the resolution to the debate above!!*** -- all you guys need to do is listen beyond *the trad band*, with some passages played in minor keys, arrangement of Altan’s version and the simple solo whistle playing young Seamus - they are both dead-on the mark.) But then he’s just a deadly whistle player - he does that thing of quick tongueing and rolls at the same time. But you have to have your ears peeled back to hear it…or be a whistle player.

Mick O’Connor’s only involvement in this debate - until David speaks to him - is as the source of this tune in Bulmer & Sharpley.
Yes, Susan - the tune I’ve known as “(Little) Katie Taylor” is the 4th tune in Altan’s set.
Question for Danny - what’s the title of the tune ?

Re the two settings mentioned above: One of thes is that in Henrik Norbeck’s collection, which is transcribed from Altan’s recording, and is essentially the same as the version posted above. The other setting, in Adrian Scahill’s collection, on closer inspection, is quite a different tune. The first part has some similarities with the tune posted above and one can easily see how the two might get confused. The second part, however is different altogether. So perhaps this tune (posted below) is the elusive Landsdowne Lass, as composed by Josie McDermott.

M:4/4
K:D
DEFA GEFE|DEFA defa|g2ed cAGE|FAGF EAGE|\
DEFA GEFE|DEFA defa|g2ed cAGE|FAGE D4:||\
d2fd adfa|bfaf gfed|cAA2 BGG2|AGFD EFGE|\
defa g2fg|a2ge fdcA|ABce dBAG|(3FGA GED2:||


Since my last posting, I have come across a third setting (posted below), in B. Black’s collection. This one, although differing in some respects from Will’s posted version, is undoubtedly the same tune. The title given is ‘Slate Roof’, and the source, Martin Mulvihill’s ‘First Collection of Traditional Irish’ Music.

M:4/4
K:D
(3DED FA GEAF|(3DED FA d2 fa|geag fdcB|AB (3=cBA EFGE|
(3DED FA GEAF|(3DED FA d2 fa|geag fdcB|ABGE FD D2 :|
fd (3fga g3 e|fd (3fga g2 ag|fdAF G2 FG|AB (3cBA dcAg|
fdfa g3 e|fdfa g2 ag|fddc AB (3cBA|EFGE FD D2 :|

Mulvihill’s collection was published in 1986 - which proves nothing. Bulmer & Sharpley, on the other hand, was published in 1974 so, if, as Kenny says, this tune appears in the said collection, then it proves beyond doubt that it was not composed in 1984.

Sorry for the delay. I saw Mick O’Connor a couple of days ago and asked him about this tune. He remembers learning it from Paddy Taylor, who claimed it as his own composition. He says that Paddy named it after his daughter, whose name, he thinks, is Katie.

So ‘Little Katie Taylor’ seems like the most probable title.

Thanks for going to such trouble, David. I owe you a pint in Cleary’s next July !

Listening to Catherine McEvoy’s CD last night. She has this tune on the recording - 2nd tune on the 3rd track - as Paddy Taylor’s…………….

Sorry to return to this again, but I’ve been having some communication with “Dow”, about the tunes mentioned in this discussion. He asked me to have a listen again to Seamus Egan’s whistle track which I believe has caused all the confusion. The 1st set of “abc”s posted above by David on 22nd November is an accurate transcription of Seamus Egan’s 2nd tune in the set of 3, and, by a process of elimination, I believe is the reel “The Baltimore Salute”. I hope that can be the end of this particular saga.

Will I like your setting of this tune. However, if anyone wants a transcription of the version on Horse With A Heart, there are some differences, especially in bars 3 and 4:

|:D2FA GEFE|EDFA d2ef|geag efdc|AG~G2 EFGE|
D2FA GEFE|EDFA d2ef|geag ed (3Bcd|1 eddc dBAF:|2 eddc d2ag||
|:fdfa g2ag|fdfa g2ag|fd=cA BG~G2|AB (3cBA dcAg|
fdfa g2ag|fdfa g2ag|fd=cA BG~G2|1 AB (3cBA d2ag:|2 AB (3cBA dBAF||

I’ve just been learning this and have come up with a different A-part which incorporates some elements of the above version merged with a couple of Will’s ideas:

|:D2FA GEFE|EDFA d2ef|geag fddB|cAAG EFGE|
D2FA GEFE|EDFA d2ef|geag ed (3Bcd|1 eddc dBAF:|2 eddc d2ag||
|:fdfa g2ag|fdfa g2ag|fd=cA BG~G2|ABcA dcAg|
fdfa g2ag|fdfa g2ag|fd=cA BG~G2|1 ABcA d2ag:|2 ABcA dBAF||

Now I’ve just got to concentrate on keeping this separate from the Seamus Egan tune!

I found this setting from Catherine McEvoy at JC’s:

T:Katie Taylor
T:Paddy Taylor’s
K:D
|:D2FA GEAG|FDFA d2fa|geag fddc|AB=cA EFGE|
D2FA GEAG|FDFA d2fa|geag fdd=c|(3ABA GE FDDz:|
|:fdfa g2ag|fdfa ga{b}ag|fd=cA G2FG|AB=cA dcAB|
~f3a ~g3z|fdfa ga{b}ag|fddc AB=cA|EFGE FDDz:|

See https://thesession.org/tunes/4095 for a transcription of the Seamus Egan tune, whatever its name is.

Would like to add that I am/was Katie Taylor - have been married now for over 30 years - and remember my father Paddy Taylor composing this for me in the late 1960’s. We played it as a hornpipe then, but my brother Kevin always preferred it as a reel.

With the collection before me, the tune transcribed and offered to all by Will here is not in Bulmer & Sharpley’s Volume 3, no ‘Little Katie Taylor’ mentioned at all there. The 32 bar double reel ‘Mick O’Connor’s’ in Volume 4, page 7, also is not this tune ~ |: DEFA G2 AG | FDFA d2 fa | ~ / ~ |: defa g2 ag | fdfa egag | ~ The tune given here by Will is not in any of the Bulmer & Sharpley volumes…

Hornpipe eh? ~ I wonder what how it would swing as a highland fling?
😛

I’m not sure that your comment clarifies anything for me, ‘c’. The abc you’ve briefly quoted seems to me to be the same tune as Will has given us, only a slightly different setting.

Not so sure about your highland fling idea either. For me the first 2 bars end too statically on the tonic, and it’s difficult to make the tune sit nicely in the short, simple phrasing of flings.

Having said that, I think that with some tweaks, the 32 bar tune could work as a nice barndance.

I’m not saying this for any other reason than the fact it’s fun to disagree with you for the sake of it.

CORRECTION to a rash statements in a moment of confusion ~

“The 32 bar double reel ‘Mick O’Connor’s’ in Volume 4, page 7, also is not this tune ~ |: DEFA G2 AG | FDFA d2 fa | ~ / ~ |: defa g2 ag | fdfa egag | ~ The tune given here by Will is not in any of the Bulmer & Sharpley volumes…”

I must have been tired, definitely not all there, as usually I’d have given the whole tune… Yes, I’d jumped the gun and must have been ‘elsewhere’, maybe in the phantom zone? Of course it is the same tune except their transcription is only one #, the F#, all Cs being natural, making their take D Mixolydian rather than D Major ~

“Music of Ireland, Volume Four”
Bulmer & Sharpley, 1976

Page 7, tune #20 ~ “Mick O’Connor’s”

X: 1
T: Mick O’Connor’s
S: Bulmer & Sharpley, Volume 4
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
R: reel
K: D Mixolydian
|: DEFA G2 AG | FDFA ~d2 fa | ~g2 ge fddc | ABcA EFGE |
DEFA G2 AG | FDFA defa | ~g2 ge fddB | cAGE FD D2 :|
|: defa g2 ag | fdfa egag | fdcA G2 FG | ABcA dcAd |
defa g2 ag | fdfa egag | fddc ABcA | EFGE FD D2 :|

Forgive me for the previous disinformation ~ please?! 🙁

Key signature: D Major
Submitted on February 25th 2008 by Tize.
~ /tunes/8301

X: 8
T: Little Katie Taylor
C: Paddy Taylor
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
R: reel
K: Dmaj
|: D2 FA GEAF | DEFA d2 ef | geag fd d/d/d | ABAG EFGE |
DEFA GEAF | DEFA d2 ef | geag fd B/c/d |[1 eddc dBAF :|[2 eddc d3 e ||
fdaf g2 ag | fdaf g2 ag | fd=cA G2 E/F/G |
[1 ABcA dcAe | fdaf g2 ag | fdaf g2 ag | fd=cA G2 E/F/G | ABcA d3e :|
[2 ABcA dcAF | DEFA GEAF | DEFA d2 ef | geag fd B/c/d | eddc dBAF |]

This is one of the tunes that the Cottage ceili band played in the Ennis Trad Fest ceili band competition last year. The Cottage are the first band on Feb 23rd’s edition of ceili house at ~

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/ceilihouse/1177834.html

# Posted on February 25th 2008 by Tize

X: 9
T: Little Katie Taylor
C: Paddy Taylor
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
R: hornpipe
K: D Major
B A>F |:\
D2 F>A G>EA>F | (3DDD F>A d2 e>f | g>ea>g f>dc>d | A>BA>G E>F (3GFE |
D2 (3FGA G>EA>F | D2 F>A d2 e>f | g>ea>g f>d (3dcd |[1 e>d (3ddc d>BA>F :|[2 e>dd>c d3 e ||
f>da>f g2 a>g | f>dA>F (3GGG A>g | f>dc>A G>BE>G | A>B (3cBA d>cA>g |
f>d (3fga g>ea>g | f>dA>F E2 A>g | f>dc>A G>B (3EFG | A>Bc>A dcdg |
f>dA>f g>eA>g | f>dA>F G>BA>g | f>dc>A G>EF>G | A2 (3cBA d>cA>F |
D>EF>A G2 (3AGF | (3DED (3FGA d2 (3def | g2 a>g f2 (3dcd | (3efe d>c d |]

And that take minus > & (3

X: 10
T: Little Katie Taylor
C: Paddy Taylor
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
R: reel
K: D Major
BAF |:\
D2 FA GEAF | D2 FA d2 ef | geag fdcd | ABAG EFGE |
DFAF GEAF | D2 FA d2 ef | geag fdcd |[1 eddc dBAF :|[2 eddc d3 e ||
fdaf g2 ag | fdAF G2 Ag | fdcA GBEG | ABcA dcAg |
fdfa geag | fdAF E2 Ag | fdcA GBEG | ABcA dcdg |
fdAf geAg | fdAF GBAg | fdcA GEFG | A2 cA dcAF |
DEFA G2 AF | D2 FA d2 ef | g2 ag f2 cd | e2 dc d |]

But can I pull a highland fling out of that? 😏 ~ a step too far?

X: 11
T: Little Katie Taylor’s Fling
C: Paddy Taylor
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
R: highland fling
K: D Major
|: (3GFE |\
D2 F>A G>EA>F | (3DDD F>A d2 e>f |
g>ea>g f>d (3dcd |[1 e>dc>B (3ABA :|[2 e>dd>c d2 ||
|: A>g |\
f>dA>f g>eA>g | f>dA>F (3GGG A>g |
[1 f>dc>A G>BE>G | A>B (3cBA G2 :|
[2 g>ea>g (3fgf (3dcd | (3efe d>c d2 |]

Step too far, I reckon 😉

Yeah, but I did it! 😀

this tune in Dmix played by tommy guihan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcgWWwp36H8

play video

And after all this spate of clarification, it seems that this tune has managed to gather to itself yet another identity:

https://thesession.org/tunes/5220/details

Allegedly from Co. Fermanagh, learned from flute player Brendan Bell (formerly of DC, now of LA).

Already here: https://thesession.org/tunes/2172
Little Katie Taylor
Altan recorded on their album ‘ Horse with a heart’ big set of four reels, among them are The Curlew, 3 scones of boxy and Little Katie Taylor and Father O’Grady visit to bocca
Marin

…with chords.