The Presbyterian three-two

This comes from John Of ford’s collection,John Of The Greeny Cheshire Way.Ihas been recorded by Blowzabella and The Battlefield Band

This tune is actually in G minor, and not in F major. The ABC needs amending.

Yes, and furthermore, it sounds nice when played in the "minor-harmonic" mode (that is with b flat, e flat and f sharp)

And all the note lengths should really be doubled (i.e. quavers should be crotchets, and so on). The L: line on the tune header just needs amending to 1/4 in an ABC editor. Great tune though - heard it in a session for the first time last night.

Just been looking at other three-twos on this site and they are all (all the ones I’ve randomly looked at) notated in 3/4 instead of 3/2 despite having the correct time signature. Most odd.

Perhaps the default L: value used to be 1/4 back in the day, and due to some blip it’s been changed to 1/8.

Maybe. I notice now that ceolochan’s version here has it correctly, although using a more cumbersome ABC notation of keeping the L value as 1/8 and doubling all the relevant note lengths in the body of the tune notation (e.g. G2 for G and so on).

This is not just a pedantic point either. One of the features of this tune, and other three-twos as I understand it, is the ambiguity of metre between simple (three groups of two beats) and compound time (two groups of three beats). If eighth notes are used as basic unit then they will either be beamed in threes or twos thus removing the ambiguity. Also where the music clearly switches from simple to compond, as in the first three bars of the B part of this tune, the L = 1/8 notation should properly change its time signature to 6/8. You can see how this has gone wrong in those bars in the first version posted here.

Yep, and if you use an L: value of 1/4, the metre could be 6/4, and in fact the result is the same as Ceol’s, except Ceol has tied the minims with a crotchet instead of dotting them, and there’s an error in bar 13.

Perhaps Jeremy could change the default value.

Plus that issue with key centre!

It’s an old issue, the discussion over length, L:, has been raised every now and then over years, and the point about avoiding adding additional headers… 😏 And, personally, I’ve not a problem with it, the resulting notes, whether L: 1/8 and G2B2 or L:1/4 and GB ~ it’s the same. Personally, I prefer L: 1/8 for allowing more detail in a transcription and less additional fiddly bits when you get down to smaller divisions… It’s a free choice, but not necessarily on this website. 😀

I was trying to remain reasonably true to he original poster, Dafydd, but have also written him to draw his attention to this, hopefully.

Bar 13?

Yes, about switching between triple and duple, as was a choice for earlier forms, like the galliard, but one could choose to force the musician into that choice, or just notate the tune straight and leave it up to improvisation. Just because a run of notes suggests the possibility of change does not mean it is ‘necessary’, a dogmatic ‘must’…

An older way of transcribing these, cramming them all together - but kind of constipated really, though it does leaves it all ‘open’… In the conversion to dots it’s relatively open anyway… Like with most things, it is best to first tie into a tradition with the ears, learning from those more familiar.

The hope is that Dafydd will correct his transcription, then I’d add a variant, and hopefully others would add their take on it, and interpretation, within those perceived limitations of L: 1/8, which I really don’t find limiting or inconvenient…

For me, the sheet music from ceolochan’s transcription is exactly as it should be (from my first encounter with this tune by hearing it). And it’s entirely a matter of personal preference whether anybody uses L: 1/8 or L: 1/4 to achieve a valid transcription.

In response to Weejie’s point about the dotted minims and tied notes, Ceolochan’s tied minim and crotchet in bars 8 and 12 looks fine to me, as the music here seems to return to 3/2 in contrast to the 6/4 feel of the previous bar(s). That is, when I heard the tune I heard an emphasis on the d/D notes not the e/E, and the shape of the tune tends to support that interpretation too.

Yep, but if all the 3/2 tunes in the database need to be changed, the L: field being set to 1/4 might be the easier option.

"Ceolochan’s tied minim and crotchet in bars 8 and 12 looks fine to me"

It does to me. I only mentioned it as it was one of the few differences in transcriptions (once the original is set to 1/4).

For me, the sheet music from ceolochan’s transcription is exactly as it should be (from my first encounter with this tune by hearing it). And it’s entirely a matter of personal preference whether anybody uses L: 1/8 or L: 1/4 to achieve a valid transcription.

In response to Weejie’s point about the dotted minims and tied notes, Ceolochan’s tied minim and crotchet in bars 8 and 12 looks fine to me, as the music here seems to return to 3/2 in contrast to the 6/4 feel of the previous bar(s). That is, when I heard the tune I heard an emphasis on the d/D notes not the e/E, and the shape of the tune tends to support that interpretation too. It’s also in keeping with the 3/2 time signature.

I’m not sure how a tune could be written out without it in places tending to support one rhythmic interpretation or another. Six crotchets in a bar is suitably ambiguous, but many decisions about beaming quavers and tying/dotting notes (depending on where they fall) will support one interpretation or the other, there’s often no choice of an ambiguous notation.

Thanks Weejie, appreciated, I’d just come back online, on my way out, to drop you a line…

However it goes, these are a blast to get into. It’s a shame if as said there are a slew of these on site that are more confusingly notated. I’m still hoping some different transcriptions will show up. There are a number of recordings online and I’ve Pete Cooper’s interpretation, but haven’t seen much else as far as commercial recordings. I’d love to hear what "The Battlefield Band" does with it… I’ll have to go looking. I might add another transcription later, but am hoping Dafydd will make his corrections first.

Sorry, I hadn’t realised I posted half my post before I posted the full post just now. Must be suffering from post-something or other syndrome!

Just catching up now after feeling a bit daft…

Weejie, I went back and read your earlier post properly. I see now you were just pointing out a difference, not making a criticism. Apologies.

"Bar 13?"

Yes, Dafydd’s transcription, (B,D DB, DC/B,) is either a semiquaver too many or one of the two quavers on either side of that semiquaver needs to be a semiquaver. You have shortened the ‘B’, which sorts it out.

No news back from Dafydd so I’ve added another, and will likely also throw in an alternate key too. For now, this is roughly the way I hear Pete Cooper, fiddler, playing this one.

B-part ~ bars 3 & 4 / 5, 6, 7 & 8 ~ also triple time - but fun to play and bow duple too.

In G Minor in John Walsh: ; Third Book of the Most Celebrated Jiggs, Lancashire Hornpipes, ‘The Third Book of the most celebrated jiggs, Lancashire hornpipes, Scotch and Highland lilts, Northern frisks, Morris’s and Cheshire rounds with hornpipes the bagpipe manner, to which is added the Black Joak, the White Joak, the Brown,, the Red, and the Yellow Joaks. With variety of whims and fancies of diff’rent humour, fitted to the genious of publick performers.’; London, 1730.

It has been published more recently in A Minor but people tend to stick to the G Minor.