The Nine Points Of Roguery reel

A great set of notes to go with a wonderful title. The B part, with it’s c natural, is the signature of this three part reel.

If you don’t want the triplets in the A part, just play them as FD. Similarly, you can skip the rolls on the c and B in the B Part by simply playing |=c2 cA B2 BG|. The rest of the tune is pretty straightforward.

Yes, Will, it

Jorg, Glad to hear the loose forearm is helping…stay with it and the consistency will come. Thanks too for the variations, always welcome, and the cross reference to Black Mare of Fanad, which I know from the Northern Fiddler book.
Will

A fiddler I know told me the title refers to the seven deadly sins, plus the two you love the most, thus equaling “The Nine Points of Roguery.” 🙂

…plays this with Ivers, I think, with the Chieftains album Tears of Stone. Called ‘Fiddling Ladies’ or something similar, it’s the 13 minute long song. Willie Frazer is another song in the set, though the last one continues to elude me.

Actually I think it’s Maire Breatnach that starts it out (Natalie McMaster has the 2nd solo with some Cape Breton stuff, while Eileen Ivers goes bezerk on The College Groves afterwards). Anyhow, here’s my attempt at the dots from the Chieftain’s version. They play it AA BB CC BB, or “Donegal style”, as Jörg mentioned above.

X: 1
T: Nine Points Of Roguery, The
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
R: reel
K: Dmaj
S: Chieftains, Tears of Stone
|:D2 FD GEFE|DEFG ABAF|D2 FD GEFA|BE~E2 BE~E2|
|D2 FD GEFE|DEFG ABAF|D2FD GEFG|Addc d4:|
B|:~=c3 A ~B2 GB|A3B AGFE|D2 FD GEFA|BE~E2 BE~E2|
|cBAc BAGB|Adde fdAF|D2FD GEFG|Addc d3:|
|:d2 fd gefe|defg abaf|d2 fd gefa|be~e2 be~e2|
|d2 fd gefe|defg abaf|defg a3g|faeg fdd2:|
B|:~=c3 A ~B2 GB|A3B AGFE|D2 FD GEFA|BE~E2 BE~E2|
|cBAc BAGB|Adde fdAF|D2FD GEFG|Addc d3:|

We played this tune at our session last night as AA BB CC BB AA and then moved on to the next tune, which succeeded in getting me very lost and confused. Is this the normal flow of the tune, or just a variation unique to our session?

I think the Boys of the Lough play this song AA BB CC BB AA, which could very well be how the session players got it.

Re: the nine points being 7 deadly sins plus your 2 favorites…

That’s great, I love it! However, I’ve also heard that the nine points of roguery are something to the effect of the opposites of the nine points of knightly virtue, those being honor, loyalty, liberality, pride, good faith, bravery, glory, unselfishness, and courtesy.

I just heard Tommy Peoples’ version (from High Part of the Road) of this tune for the first time in years, and it was some of the most aggressive, even violent, fiddling I’ve ever heard. He played the tune AA BB CC BB, and then repeated it like that once, before going into Bean an Ti Lar.

I love listening to Matt Molloy whiz through this tune. How do you flute/whistle players play the C nat roll on the second part?

Not at all.

C nat roll is played fingering the C nat with the two index fingers up (everything else down), closing the right index finger to play the upper note of the ornament and closing the left index finger to play the lower. Sounds good if done quickly.

We play the Black Mare of Fanad with friends in Seattle. They do the Nine Points of Roguery when we play in Olympia….
Anyway, they are somewhat different.
Here’s the full version of Black Mare…

X: 1
T:The Black Mare of Fanad
M:C|
L:1/8
S:Donnegal
R:Reel
K:D
A, | “D” D2 FD GFED | AdAF AdAF | {DE}D2 FA “G” GFEd |“C” =cE (3EEE CE
EF | !
“D” DEFD GFED | AdAF AdAF | {DE}D2 FA “G” GFEc | dD (3DDD dDD :| !
|: B | “C” {d}C2 cA “G/B” {d} B2 BG | “Am” {Ad} A2 Ad “G/B” AGFE | “D” (
3DDD FA “G” GFEd | “C”=cE (3EEE “Am” cEEd|!
“C” =cecA “G/B” BdBG | “Am” Adcd “G/B” fdAF | “D” (3DED FA “G” GFEc |“
D“ dD (3DDD dDD :| !
|: c| “D” d2 fa “C” gfec | “D” defg abaf | d2 fa “C” gfga | “Am” be (3d
fd beef| !
“D” d2 fa “C” gfec | “D” defg abaf | d2 fa “C” gfga | “Am” fage “D” fdA
:| !
B | “C” =cedA “G/B” BdBG | “ Am“ Adcd “G/B” fdAF | “D” {DE}D2 FA GFEd |
“C” =cE (3EEE “Am” cEEd |!
“C” (3=cdc ca “G/B” B2 BG | “Am” {B} A2 Ad “G/B” AGFE | “D” (3DED FA “G”
GFEc | “D” dD (3DDD dDDB |!
“C” [E2=c2] cA “G/B” [D2B2] BG | “Am” A2 Ad “G/B” AGFE | “D” {DE} D2 FA
“G” GFEd | “C” =cE (3EEE “Am” cEEd | !
“C” =cecA “G/B” BdBG | “Am” Adcd “D” fdAF | (3DED FA “G” GFEc | “D” dD (
3DDD dDD |]

I forgot to mention.
I was told this version came from “The Northern Fiddler” book…

1. deceit
2. slight of hand
3. cunning
4. influence
5. a comely face
6. upper hand
7. good natured (hint of cynicism optional)
8. loadsa style
9. perfectly ruthless (can play the bagpipe and will)

Well, I’m only guessing… Any specialist out there?

I’ve always liked the Black Mare setting better than the Nine Points. It’s a much wilder tune played that way, aptly descriptive of an untamable wild horse like the Black Mare in the story John Doherty used to tell. Nine Points is kind of dull and pedestrian in comparison…

I’ve always liked this slip jig from a Boys of the Lough LP that we have. Here’s a YouTube Link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvWx_KLDfuE

play video

I can’t seem to find it in The Sessions Tune Section - I’ve also tried The Nine Points of Knavery and Black Mare of Fanad, which are possible alternative titles, but still no joy.

Is it going under yet another title?
I’d really like to get the sheet music or ABC for it, if possible.

Many thanks if you can help me!

Problem solved - it’s a reel! How embarrassing!
(Retires to hide under the table for a few hours.)

The sort of senior moments I keep having, I really hate how this site doesn’t have an ‘edit’ function once the post is up! 🙂

My feeble brain was misled by the ‘nine’ in the title: was also a bit tired after searching for several other tunes on the Session.
Hope I gave you a laugh this morning, anyway. And may I take the opportunity to thank Jeremy for this remarkable site, where I can find the tunes I love so easily (once I’ve come to my senses)! 🙂

Interesting tune, chord wise its very simple but how do the multitude view the key? Do the first 2 bars of part 2 shift into G maj? Is the C nat a real accidental or intentional 🙂 joke.
How do the music theory geeks view this tune? I have my own opinion but im curious as to yours .

Johnny Doherty explains the background to the “true” name of this reel (“The Black Mare Of Fanad”) and then plays it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmlsYfNTcP0

play video

Have a look at Neilly O’Boyle’s for a close relative of the A part (not in the same key) https://thesession.org/tunes/2428

I suspect that the original form of the title was “Nine Points of Roguery” and was intended as a comic opposition to William Murray, Lord Mansfield’s famous phrase “property is nine points of the law” (usually misquoted these days in modern legal language as “possession is nine-tenths of the law”).

Transcription of John Doherty’s story from the video linked above:
______________________________
Yes, yes, I can tell you a story about what happened one time in Fanad. It was about a horse rider that was coming home from Letterkenny, on his way going to Fanad, and - that was a true story, that wasn’t a ‘yarn’, as we say, that was a real true story - and this rider was coming right down, on and on, till he came to a crossroads somewhere between Milford and Fanad. And that crossroads, that was talked about over the county, all about this strange vision that was always seen [at the] crossroads.

And as Doyle was coming down on horseback, somewhere at a little distance he saw the vision standing at the crossroads. And it was Sally he called the mare - she was a black mare without a white hair - and as he saw the vision standing at the crossroads the poor soul had nothing to do, and he just pull the reins and tell Sally to go on. So, the mare did go on with a rapid dash, and passed the vision, and the vision kept on the road with the mare, all until they went into Fanad. And it was a long, long, long, tough race - the vision kept with the mare but she still led the vision out.

And on and on and on and on till they came near to Doyle’s house. Doyle was a good fiddle player. And when he came in he was badly excited, and he rested for a while - he put the mare into the stable and he rested for a while after that - and he came into the kitchen and he took his supper. [I can’t make out this sentence - ‘in a kind of way, badly ____ though’ ?] And some time after that he prepared to go to bed.

Well, he went into bed, and somehow he couldn’t sleep. He was thinking of just his experience, about this terrible vision that he had seen. And the rhythm of the mare’s hooves on the road give Doyle the impression of this reel that he was about to play on the fiddle. So he lay on the bed for a while, and he woke up then after a sort of a slumber, and he reached for the fiddle and he took down the fiddle, and played this reel over and over - three or four times over - again, and he had no name for the reel but the name he called it was the Black Mare of Fanad. That’s the name he give the reel.

Now, sometimes people - very smart lads maybe - some of them maybe call this, give it a different name, maybe they would call it ‘The Nine Points of Roguery’, some name like that you know? But the real name of the reel is the Black Mare of Fanad.
______________________________

I can’t tell if it’s just Doherty’s accent or if he actually says ‘give’ where you would usually say ‘gave’!

Doherty’s rendition of the tune has always seemed to me to have a real edge to it, for want of a better word, and no wonder when you consider this story that he associated with it. His version is closest to X:3 posted by jardineromi; that phrase in bars 3-4 with the leap of a seventh and the subsequent C natural feels like a wonderfully wild touch, bearing that haunting quality.