Pigeon on the Gate
This is not your uncle’s Pigeon on the Gate and share’s little melodically or harmonically with the other reel by this name. This setting is based on the playing on Michelle O’Brien and Aogan Lynch on their eponymous album.
Pigeon on the Gate
This is part of the fairly large pigeon on the gate family of tunes. This is a setting that I associate with Donegal that admittedly is at the other end of the continuum from the most-played version. There are intermediate settings in Gminor that make the relationship clearer. There’s another in Eminor (ish) that is close to this one. All are played as related but separate tunes and it’s not unusual to have a set of two of them.
I’ll post some when I get a chance.
Yep, there’s a whole flock of these tunes—two of them already posted on this site—all obviously related, but distinct. I like the wild couple of measures that kick off the A part here. Reminds me too of Hunter’s Purse.
In their sleeve notes, Michelle and Aogan don’t say where they got this, but Michelle was a student of Tommy Peoples, and the northern connection is clear in much of her playing (though she’s orginally from Co. Clare).
I thought "The pigeon on the gate" was just the name you told a "newbie" at a session if they asked what tune you just played. 🙂
So what gives, Will? It’s okay for you to post a version of a tune already in the files but not okay for someone else?
Wrong side of the bed this morning?
As far as I can tell, this tune isn’t already in the data base. It’s *not* the same tune as the other Pigeons on the Gates. I looked long and hard before posting it here. If it is a duplicate post, Jeremy should remove it.
It’s very hard to judge if it’s *sufficiently* different from the standard setting, but this is in a different key with interesting variations and worth a separate entry, I think.
For ages, Jeremy’s rule of thumb here has been to include alternate settings in the comment section of a tune (if it’s already been posted). And to allow clearly distinct tunes to stand alone, even if they share a name and some family resemblence to another tune.
Radriano’s apparently upset because I pointed out to another contributor that "Carmel Doyle’s" is actually Owen Hackett’s (aka Paddy Gavin’s), and I suggested that it’s not okay to post a well known tune under a made-up name because it brings confusion to the data base. Radriano implied that I’m against alternate settings of the tunes here, which is untrue (I frequently post alternate settings of tunes—in their comment sections, where Jeremy wants them).
Sometimes it’s a judgment call whether a tune is distinct enough to warrant a separate posting. I’ve tried to follow Jeremy’s lead in this respect. Sometimes I err, and sometimes the search facilities here don’t reveal a tune already in the archives (as when I recently posted Da Full Rigged Ship, which was properly removed). In any case, it’s up to Jeremy to make the final decision (and he’s human, so not not always clearly consistent, at least with his own stated protocols).
I still think this is a different tune from the other Pigeons on the Gate. If Jeremy disagrees, I wouldn’t complain one whit if he moved it to the comments of one of the other two postings. But the recent posting of Carmel Doyle’s is clearly just Owen Hackett’s. It should be moved to the comments of OH to prevent losing it (because no one else will ever know to search for it under Carmel Doyle’s). C’mon. I don’t think we want people posting the Kesh Jig 20 different times under names like "The Cat that Ate the Cell Phone" and "The Ringing Pile of Cat Scat" do we?
For comparison sake, here’s the PotG as originally posted to the archives by Brad Maloney here: https://thesession.org/tunes/517
, followed by the setting I posted above from the playing of Michelle O’Brien but transposed into Edor.
They clearly *are* close variants of the same tune (not that you’d want to play Michelle’s version in Edor), despite some significant departures (particularly in the B part), so maybe the Ador version I posted above *should* be bumped to the comments section under Brad’s original posting. I’d be okay with that.
T: Pigeon On The Gate, The
dc|BE ~E2 BEdE|BE ~E2 dBAF|D2 (3FED ADFE|DEFA BAFA|
BE ~E2 BEdE|BE ~E2 B2 AF|D2 FA dfec|dBAF E2:|
FA|Beed efed|(3Bcd ef gedB|Addc d3 B|A2 FE DEFA|
Beed efed|(3Bcd ef g2 fg|af (3gfe fd ec|dBAF E2:|
T: Pigeon On The Gate, The
S: Michelle O’Brien (who plays it in Ador)
|:BEED EdBE|E/E/E B/c/d BAFE|D3F ADFE|D2 F/G/A dfed|
BEED EdBE|E/E/E B/c/d BAFE|D2 F/G/A dfec|dBAF E3d:|
B~e3 ^dee=d|B~e3 fded|B~A3 F/G/A Bc|dBce dBAd|
B~e3 ^dee=d|B~e3 fded|BA F/G/A defe|dBAF E3 d|
B~e3 ^dee=d|B~e3 fded|B~A3 F/G/A Bc|defe dBAF|
~G3B ~E3d|B~E3 fded|BA F/G/A defe|dBAF E3 d||
This setting of Pigeon on the Gate is similar to what Noel Hill recorded as a solo on that recording with Tony Linnane. There’s a strong argument for giving it it’s own real-estate, but it’s a hard call. It is in a different key, but it has similar shapes to the other one — so I would tend to think it should be submitted in the comments section of the more well known one. Also, if you click on the link from Noel’s recording, or the one where Michelle O’Brien plays it — you will go to the other page and fail to find the setting you’re seeking.
In the case of the "alternate setting" of Owen Hackett’s (Carmel Doyle’s); it’s too similar and should definitely have been added to the comments section that was already in the database rather than having it’s own real-estate.
But Jeremy will ultimately make the final determination of course. 😉
Hmmm…maybe the recording track links should go to a list of all the tunes posted here under that name, so you can try them all out till you find the one that matches. For example, if you click on the Boys of Ballisadare in the recording section, that should lead you to at least two subsequent links—one for the reel, and one for the slip jig. Then it’s up to you to match the notation to the recording.
I have thought that too, Will. I should have remembered that when Jeremy was taking suggestions. I think I first noticed it when I was looking for a particular Paddy Fahey tunes that I knew was on a certain recording. It seems like I end up at the same Paddy Fahey tune no matter which recording I’m coming from. I later realized I needed to do a seperate search on "Paddy Fahey," but I didn’t realize it at first and became frustrated.
Easy there, Will. I was upset because you did not just "point out" the situation to the other contributor. You berated him for it and you did it on a public forum. Perhaps you got out of bed on the wrong side that day, huh? If you’re going to be fair, be fair with everyone, okay?
Actually, I thought Will was being quite fair, and not nearly so pointed as he could have been. He didn’t point out, for instance, that it’s a weird thing to do, naming a tune "in honor of" someone that probably already has a perfectly good name, just because you don’t know what the tune name is. It’s one thing to say, it’s a "Paddy O’Brien’s" because you heard Paddy O’Brien play it, and another to just "name it" after someone because you’d like to name a tune after them.
I thought about just emailing JACKB, rather than addressing the whole thing publicly, but then I reckoned if I did it publicly it might spark a discussion—which it has.
If I came across as at all harsh it’s because I meant it to sting at least a little bit. It’s one thing to make a mistake and another thing to keep making the same mistake—one that threatens the integrity of the work we’re all putting into making this a decent resource for finding tunes.
In short, I don’t think it’s wrong to call someone on a hasty or ill-informed posting in order to protect the tune data base. Witness how the critique of my posting of Pigeon on the Gate resulted in a clearer understanding of its relationship with the other PotG.
When we post a tune here we have a responsibility to the trad community to do a little research, cross check our information, and try to be as accurate as possible. It’s certainly disrespectful of the people who have passed the tune on over generations to assume we can willy-nilly rename it, as if it has no history or connection to other players. There are lives on the other ends of these tunes. And we also owe Jeremy some ounce of care so we’re not just piling work on his shoulders. Sure, we all make mistakes, but some are more destabilizing than others, and a trend of errors deserves come uppance. When I first started submitting tunes here I got my wrist slapped in public (by Jeremy no less, among others) for sloppy postings and I learned in a hurry to do a better job of it. I hope JACKB continues to post tunes, but with a better sense of the possible pitfalls and how to avoid them. As always, I and many others here (more knowledgeable than me) are happy to review abcs before they’re submitted.
Alternate tune titles
I went back and read Jack B’s submission comments again for Carmel Doyle’s. I didn’t realize he had invented the name because he didn’t know what the name of the tune was, and I think Will made a necessary point in light of the fact that it wasn’t the first time Jack B. had done it. To not know the name of a tune and arbitrarily name it after someone you know that has little or no connection with a tune you didn’t compose yourself is a bit “out there” and further confuses something that already suffers from a huge confusion factor as it is. This practice also contributes to Jeremy’s headache I would imagine. From my understanding of session.org protocol in matters like this, the usual procedure is to submit the tune as "name un known" or "Gan Ainm" and ask if anyone recognizes the tune and knows the name. Jeremy sometimes will catch this and work it out in a private email and make the necessary adjustments.
As Zina points out, tunes sometimes get names attached to them because a person ends up being associated with the tune for one reason or another. An example is the Carrowcastle reel. Sonny McDonagh, a Sligo flute player, (RIP) told me it later became known as "George White’s Favorite" because George White, a New York publican, would always ask for that tune. There are many more examples like this that have acceptable and understandable reasons for showing up as a tune title, and there are already enough controversies about such explanations that to add additional titles does more harm than good.
Oh, I cross-posted with Will… uh… sorry. I kind of just repeated what he said… more or less. 😲
Well, better than I said it, and thanks for the reality check. 🙂
Will, I totally agree with you about the "naming of a tune" business. With respect to settings of tunes, of course nobody want multiple posts of "Kesh Jig." I admit I reacted hastily - actually my reaction goes back a ways because I once posted a tune that was rejected simply because there was another tune with the same title already. I did check the other tune and mine was quite different but rejected nonetheless. Granted things may have changed since then regarding policy around here.
So, if I got out of bed on the wrong side that day - it’s hard to tell because the other side is against the wall.
But not to totally relinquish my reputation as a curmudgeon, what’s with the smiley faces? Now they’re really silly!
Sometimes it’s hard to see that a consistent policy is in force. I can’t for the life of me figure out why Carmel Doyle’s is still up. But it’s not my site, just my playground. Jeremy certainly earns his vacations away from us, and his right to be whimsical if he wants.
That sucks that your tune got rejected—try posting it again and see if it survives this time. Or stick it in the comment section of the tune with the same name so a bunch of us can then lobby that it deserves its own posting.
Nevermind the Wal-martrification of the site—the emoticons are just Jeremy’s way of reminding us not to take ourselves too seriously. It must work…Jack and I haven’t growled at or bitten each other in eons. 🙂
Oh God, tell me you haven’t jixed yourselves!
"jixed"…you mean "fixed," as in neutered? 8o)
You know, there’s been an awful lot of typos in my posts recently. I can’t decide if it’s temporary ADD or if there’s something different about the settings on my keyboard…
No worries—my fiddling’s been like that for years (and I’m not that much older than you are *grin*).
Oh, that’s SO comforting…pbbbbttthhht to you, Harmon. Heh.
I would argue that this tune belongs in the comments section - but only because a version of the Pigeon on the Gate from the playing of Paddy Fahy, which I submitted as a separate tune a few months ago, got deleted. It was in G Mixolydian, and *at least* as different from the ‘standard’ version as this one.
Still, I don’t really care a jot about this version being posted as a separate tune. It’s a great version, and deserves to be brought to people’s attention.
The Gmix version should at least have been saved in the comments to one of the other Pigeon on the Gates.
“The Pigeon on the Gate” in Ador and Gdor
John Blake and Lamond Gillespie also recorded a very similar version in Ador on "Traditional Irish Music from London."
Donegal fiddler Ciarán Ó Maonaigh did it in Gdor: http://www.rte.ie/radio1/thelatesession/rams/9january.ram (starts around 24:00) And Dermott Byrne’s version in the same key here:
I heard that Cape Breton fiddlers also play it in Gdor.
And Noel Hill version in Ador posted by Gian Marco here: https://thesession.org/tunes/517/comments#comment13594
Re: The Pigeon On The Gate
love this version : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31qLjYoU2js