Mazurka Des Écoliers De Saint Genest mazurka

One of my favourite tunes.It’s so well known here in Belgium that it’s called “The Mazurka” .Wherever Flemish folk musicians gather you will hear this tune.Other than that I don’t know much about it.Perhaps Maarten can enlighten us.

I’ts lovely, one of my favourites. I’ll see if I’ve the notes here, which I’m sure are at hand, but can I find them. If not me someone else will know…

I may have actually known this as a bourée á trios temps, in three time? I’ll do a search…

Played both ways ~ 3/8 Bouree & 3/4 Mazurka, & in different keys…

http://www.amta.com.fr/fr/musiciens/musicien.asp?codemusicien=1

http://www.vancouverworldmusic.org/html/trameMail.html

https://thesession.org/tunes/562

https://thesession.org/tunes/3356

Not to worry you Dafydd, but I think this may have been one of the mazurkas I submitted sometime ago, over a year, that Jeremy chose to axe. Mind you, the site has become a little more international since that time… It’s a nice tune, let’s hope it’s left alone. I might even submit the versions I have of it, keys and the bouree? WIll I risk it? 😉

I pretty much confined myself to Irish after that effort was squelched. I’ve some other of Chabenat’s work. He’s a damned fine player of the vielle a roue / hurdy-gurdy, progressive, and he’s composed some lovely music, like this air of two ways… Maybe I’ll send you the ABCs and you can decide whether to risk it…

K: D minor
|: D E>D |
A2 A>B c>d | A2 A2 B>A | G2 A>G F>E | F2 D>D E>D |
A2 AB cd | A2 A2 BA | G2 A>G F>E | D3 :|
|: A dc |
B2 BA Bc | d2 d2 cB | A2 AG AB | A2 AD dc |
B3 A Bc | d2 d2 cB | A2 AF EF | D3 :|

Some of us also like to finish both parts so:
| E3 :| ~ and for part-B a second ending:
|1 E3 :|2 D3 ||

I’ve a few other ways with this but this will do for a start. I will return with the bouree ABCs later…

~ also in this key here:

“The Massif Central Tune Book No.2”
compiled by Mel Stevens
Dragonfly Music, 1988

This is #2 of 2 and both I highly recommended…

I’ve also played this in E minor, and dropping to a low rumble starting below the staff in B minor…very under the skin and bluesy…

M: 3/8
L: 1/16
R: bouree a trois temps
K: Amin
ABA |:
e2efga | e4 fe | d2edcB | c2AABA |
e2efga | e4 fe | d2edcB | B3 :|
|: aag |
f2fefg | a4 gf | e2e^def | e4 ag |
f2fefg | a4 gf | e2dcBc |1 B3 :|2 A3 ||

Fully swung, but for interest with the different ‘E’ endings:

K: D minor
|: D E>D |
A2 A>B c>d | A2 A2 B>A | G2 A>G F>E | F2 D>D E>D |
A2 AB cd | A2 A2 BA | G2 A>G F>E | E3 :|
|: A d>c |
B2 B>A B>c | d2 d2 c>B | A2 A>G A>B | A2 A>D d>c |
B3 A B>c | d2 d2 c>B | A2 A>F E>F |1 E3 :|2 D3 ||

Fully swung, but for interest with the different ‘E’ endings:

K: D minor
|: D E>D |
A2 A>B c>d | A2 A2 B>A | G2 A>G F>E | F2 D>D E>D |
A2 A>B c>d | A2 A2 B>A | G2 A>G F>E | E3 :|
|: A d>c |
B2 B>A B>c | d2 d2 c>B | A2 A>G A>B | A2 A>D d>c |
B3 A B>c | d2 d2 c>B | A2 A>F E>F |1 E3 :|2 D3 ||

Oops! ~ I know, I know, forgive me, but just for the hair shirts out there ~ slap, slap, slap, bang, bang, bang, no, I mean slap > Slap, SLAP2, bang > Bang, BANG2 ~ WAKE UP!!!! Mea culpa!
Honest, it has been a tough week…

K: E minor
|: E F>E |
B2 B>c d>e | B2 B2 c>B | A2 B>A G>F | G2 E2 F>E |
B3 c d>e | B4 c>B | A2 B>A G>E | F3 :|
B e>d |
c2 c>B c>d | (3efe d2 c2 | B2 B>A B>c | B>E G>B e>d |
c3 B c>d | e2 (3ded c2 |1 B2 B>E G>E | F3 :|
2 B2 B>G F>G | E3 ||

Go on, you can figure out the low B minor ~ |: B, C>B, | ~

Welcolme back ceolachan.

Gone back into the shadows again Dafydd ~ but the the welcome is appreciated…

Sorry, folks…it’s not a Slip Jig, it’s a Mazurka from Central France…!

With ‘Man in the Brown Hat’ we have a real classic Bal Folk Schottische, so I thought to follow it up with one of THE classic Mazurkas from France. Get prepared for Saint Chartier!

The tune was written by french Vielle à Roue virtuoso, Gilles Chabenat and first recorded on the album ‘Les Ecoliers De Saint Genest’ from 1983 (beautiful album, by the way).

It should be played at around 130 bpm (dotted crotchet). It really needs to swing to get the dancers swirling about!

Not from any country or composer… 😏

I’m hoping it is already on site so this can go la-la… But, I’ve saved and and will make the necessary adjustments to this transcription just in case… Mazurkas are 3/4 but are often swung, and sometimes heavily…

*Sigh*

I’ve been through this discussion a number of times…never mind.

I know that they are usually written in 3/4 time, but there are some Mazurkas which come with a really strong shuffle feel. These I write out as 9/8, so people can grasp the rhythm at least a wee bit better.

And I’m not alone with that! I’ve seen other transcriptions of Mazurkas done in 9/8, even in some books.

It’s just like with some Breton Larides 8 temps. Most of them are in straight 4/4, while others (those with a really strong swing) come in 12/8 flavour. The same goes for some Dans Fisel.

These dots can never fully capture the music, that’s understood. But I’ll alway try and get as much of the phrasing into a transcripton as I possibly can without cluttering the sheet.

So.

I don’t give s**t about any conventions, as long as they are just that: conventions.

If I can make life a bit easier for someone who might want to play this (and has never before played a French Mazurka), then I’ll do. Even if it means ditching transcription conventions.

In my book, most conventions belong to some dark and remote place anway, where they can bother no one.

Played both ways ~ 3/8 Bouree & 3/4 Mazurka, & in different keys…
Key signature: Aminor
Submitted on November 23rd 2005 by dafydd.
https://thesession.org/tunes/5231

😏

“Dark and remote places” eh? So, I see, you have the light and everyone else, or the vast majority of ‘others’, are wrong. It seems I’ve seen and heard it all before, repeating over and over again across history. As usual, those convinced of their own superior ways are generally not open to discussion, whatever proof is put before them. Who is in the light and who is in the dark? I’ve seen 4/4 barndances transcribed as 12/8 in print ~ that doesn’t make it right, anymore than transcribing modal tunes as Major is right, but it keep happening and will continue so… We all have our quirks, and some of us do daft things. It would be nice if someone was doing a search to find a ‘mazurka’ under mazurkas and a slip jig under slip jigs. ‘Conventions’ are guides, usually established over a long time and by many different minds, with experience and understanding. But, there will always be the quirky attempts to redefine things, c’est la vie…

Here we go anyway, for those who really need it in 3/4:

D ED|“Dm”A2 AB cd|“Fmaj7”A2-AA BA|“Gm7”G2 AG FE|“F6”F2 DD ED|“Dm”A2 AB cd|“Fmaj7”A2-AA BA|“Gm7”G2 AG FG|1“Am7”E2-E:|2“A7sus4”E2-E||

|:A dc|“Bbmaj7”B2 BA Bc|“Gm7”d2-dd cB|“Fmaj7”A2 AG AB|“Am7”A2-AB dc|“Bbmaj7”B2 BA Bc|“Gm7”d2-dd cB|1“Am7”A2 GF EF|E2-E:|2“Am7”A2 GF EF|“Dm”D2-D||

And no, I’m not claiming to have ‘the light’. My batteries keep running out all the time, so…

Umph…sorry…forgot to post the header….here it comes:

X: 1
T: Mazurka de Gilles Chabenat
M: 3/4
L: 1/8
R: Mazurka
C: Gilles Chabenat
K: Dm

X: 1
T: Mazurka de Gilles Chabenat
M: 3/4
L: 1/8
R: Mazurka
C: Gilles Chabenat
K: Dm
|: D E>D |
A2 A>B c>d | A2-A>A B>A | G2 A>G F>E | F2 D>D E>D |
A2 A>B c>d | A2-A>A B>A | G2 A>G F>G | E2-E :|
|: A d>c |
B2 B>A B>c | d2-d>d c>B | A2 A>G A>B | A2-A>B d>c |
B2 B>A B>c | d2-d>d c>B | A2 G>F E>F |[1 E2-E :|[2 D2-D ||

Those are your notes…

So, now we have plenty of differently transcribed versions of the same tune on hand. I guess it’s called diversity… ;)

And me surrenders, for peace sake: If I have another Mazurka to submit, I’ll do so in 3/4 time…

Come to speak of it, the dotted 8th+16th phrasing isn’t the real thing either. Seems we’ll just have to live with it…

“dotted 8th+16th phrasing” ~ is rarely seen that way and is usually interpreted as 3rds at best. It is suggestive, and also accepted as so in most circles…

Yeah, suggestive is the word. Agreed. Now let’s be through with it! 😎

Key signature: d minor
Submitted on October 12th 2007 by Mario.
~ /tunes/7854

X: 1
T: Mazurka De Gilles Chabenat
C: Gilles Chabenat
M: 9/8
L: 1/8
R: slip jig
K: d minor
|: D E2 D |
“Dm” A3 A2 B c2 d | “Fmaj7” A3- A2 A B2 A | “Gm7” G3 A2 G F2 E | “F6” F3 D2 D E2 D |
“Dm” A3 A2 B c2 d | “Fmaj7” A3- A2 A B2 A | “Gm7” G3 A2 G F2 G |[1 “Am7” E3- E2 :|
[2 “A7sus4” E3- E2 ||
|: A d2 c |
“Bbmaj7” B3 B2 A B2 c | “Gm7” d3- d2 d c2 B | “Fmaj7” A3 A2 G A2 B | “Am7” A3- A2 B d2 c |
“Bbmaj7” B3 B2 A B2 c | “Gm7” d3- d2 d c2 B |[1 “Am7” A3 G2 F E2 F | E3- E2 :|
[2 “Am7” A3 G2 F E2 F | “Dm” D3- D2 ||

Submitted on October 12th 2007 by Mario.

X: 1
T: Mazurka de Gilles Chabenat
C: Gilles Chabenat
M: 3/4
L: 1/8
R: Mazurka
C: Gilles Chabenat
K: Dm
|: D E>D |
A2 A>B c>d | A2-A>A B>A | G2 A>G F>E | F2 D>D E>D |
A2 A>B c>d | A2-A>A B>A | G2 A>G F>G | E2-E :|
|: A d>c |
B2 B>A B>c | d2-d>d c>B | A2 A>G A>B | A2-A>B d>c |
B2 B>A B>c | d2-d>d c>B | A2 G>F E>F |[1 E2-E :|[2 D2-D ||

# Posted on October 12th 2007 by ceolachan
~ Mario’s notes simplified & with the ‘>’

COMMENTS from same ~

Sorry, folks…it’s not a Slip Jig, it’s a Mazurka from Central France…! With ‘Man in the Brown Hat’ we have a real classic Bal Folk Schottische, so I thought to follow it up with one of THE classic Mazurkas from France. Get prepared for Saint Chartier! The tune was written by french Vielle à Roue virtuoso, Gilles Chabenat and first recorded on the album ‘Les Ecoliers De Saint Genest’ from 1983 (beautiful album, by the way). It should be played at around 130 bpm (dotted crotchet). It really needs to swing to get the dancers swirling about!

# Posted on October 12th 2007 by Mario

MAZURKAS ARE NOT 9/8 ~ not from any country or composer…
Mazurkas are 3/4 but are often swung, and sometimes heavily…

# Posted on October 12th 2007 by ceolachan

Sigh*
I’ve been through this discussion a number of times…never mind. I know that they are usually written in 3/4 time, but there are some Mazurkas which come with a really strong shuffle feel. These I write out as 9/8, so people can grasp the rhythm at least a wee bit better. And I’m not alone with that! I’ve seen other transcriptions of Mazurkas done in 9/8, even in some books. It’s just like with some Breton Larides 8 temps. Most of them are in straight 4/4, while others (those with a really strong swing) come in 12/8 flavour. The same goes for some Dans Fisel. These dots can never fully capture the music, that’s understood. But I’ll alway try and get as much of the phrasing into a transcripton as I possibly can without cluttering the sheet. So.

I don’t give s**t about any conventions, as long as they are just that: conventions. If I can make life a bit easier for someone who might want to play this (and has never before played a French Mazurka), then I’ll do. Even if it means ditching transcription conventions. In my book, most conventions belong to some dark and remote place anway, where they can bother no one.

# Posted on October 12th 2007 by Mario

> ~ It’s called ‘swing’…

# Posted on October 12th 2007 by ceolachan

C’est la vie! ~ “Dark and remote places” eh? 😀

So, I see, you have the light and everyone else, or the vast majority of ‘others’, are wrong? It seems I’ve seen and heard it all before, repeating over and over again across history. As usual, those convinced of their own superior ways are generally not open to discussion, whatever proof is put before them. Who is in the light and who is in the dark? I’ve seen 4/4 barndances transcribed as 12/8 in print ~ that doesn’t make it right, anymore than transcribing modal tunes as Major is right, but it keep happening and will continue so ad infinitum… We all have our quirks, and some of us do daft things, myself included. It would be nice if when someone was doing a search to find a ‘mazurka’ they’d find it under ‘mazurkas’ (3/4), and if after a slip jig, they’d find it under ‘slip jigs’ (9/8). ‘Conventions’ are guides, usually established over a long time and by many different minds, with experience and understanding. But, there will always be the quirky attempts to redefine things, c’est la vie…

# Posted on October 12th 2007 by ceolachan

No, I’m not claiming to have ‘the light’. My batteries keep running out all the time, so…

So, now we have plenty of differently transcribed versions of the same tune on hand. I guess it’s called diversity… 😉 And me surrenders, for peace sake: If I have another Mazurka to submit, I’ll do so in 3/4 time…

Come to speak of it, the dotted 8th+16th phrasing isn’t the real thing either. Seems we’ll just have to live with it…

# Posted on October 12th 2007 by Mario

“dotted 8th+16th phrasing” ~ is rarely seen that way and is usually interpreted as 3rds at best. It is suggestive, and also accepted as so in most circles…

But hey, if 9/8 floats your boat, put the ‘alternate’ transcription in the ‘comments’, like here… Let’s not fall out over the dots, since what we play is probably the same and without those damned spots in the way… 😉

# Posted on October 12th 2007 by ceolachan

😎 ~ take off your glasses and put your dukes up! ~ Sorry, I mean bring your instrument out of the case, we’ll tune up and forget about the damned dots…

Armagni, damned, I paid less than a fiver for these specs…

Sorry Mario, it seems some folks are upset at me stating this ‘edict’…

I was stating what I have seen, in more than a few countries and by more than a few composers and more than a few types of music, that 3/4 as the time signature for mazurkas was given as the ‘usual’ or ‘norm’… Curiously that is also the case with this website. Look up ‘mazurkas’…

However, that hasn’t stopped the odd transcription in 9/8, and with the swing that occurs in some it isn’t unexpected. Just as previously said, I’ve seen 4/4 barndances transcribed and in print as 12/8. But, here and in most of the sources I’ve had access to, as a musician and a dancer, it has tended to be that mazurkas were notate as 3/4, and if swing was needed then they were set out like hornpipes and other swung forms, without changing the time signature. I shouldn’t have to give long lists of sources, but I could, easily, in at least half a dozen different languages…

So, just to be clear, it isn’t ‘my edict’, it is the generally accepted ‘norm’, right or wrong in anyone’s eyes, and it is the ‘norm’ on this website, which I have tended to respect. I didn’t come up with 3/4 off the top of my head or out of some antagonism toward the time signature of 9/8. I love 9/8 tunes, just as I love mazurkas and have played many and danced to them as well. I also like barndances and slides. I love dance music… Some others, with respect, have created and maintained this ‘norm’, but I’m not one to say somebody can’t do their own thing, but maybe that is best left for the ‘comments’. Here it seems the intention is for the ‘norm’, the category of mazurkas being in 3/4 time, swung or not…
😏

It’s alright Mario, friends, at least between us compadre…

Can I propose a solution to this that will keep you both happy? If Mario now goes to edit details and changes the tune type to “mazurka”, then the dots will stay the same as Mario transcribed in 9/8, but it won’t be listed as a slip jig anymore.

and if he doesn’t? then perhaps Jeremy should delete it and we start all over again but with correct time signature, tune type, key and mode. End of confusions hopefully.

Well…this has come a long way, really.

Ceolachan is basically right: for Mazurkas, the accepted meter is 3/4. I have explained before just why I happen to transcribe some of them in 9/8 time, even if this is not the ‘norm’. Maybe this is just because some 3/4 transcribed Mazurkas - especially when they are heavily swung - just don’t sound right when played back using Sibelius or ABCnavigator.

Dow: that was a smart idea, and I just changed the tunetype from Slip Jig to Mazurka. Tadaa!

Now let there be peace in the valley…and a pint to boot, please! 😉

Let’s make that a boiler maker Mario… 😉

Er…Hetty…

While the time signature might be considered wrong here, the tune type is right (now that I changed it), as are key and mode… 😎

Coelachan, my friend, it would be high time for a couple of tunes - if you weren’t that far away…! 😉

Darn those typos! Sorry, Ceolachan.

Hey, that’s my place, I’m the certified dyslexic… 😎 (certifiable!)

As some folks on site here refer to me as ~

coelacanth: a primitive marine fish thought to be extinct until a living specimen was discovered…

I do have a passion for water, where I have always been more comfortable than on dry land…fresh water or salt water…

Now Ceolachan I know you have seen Mazurkas even transcribed in 12/8 before and on this very site! 😉

You can’t dance a Mazurka in 9/8 - Strip the Willow or any dance with a running step . . . yea, but mazurkas!

Dancing…come to speak of it: I have to confess that I don’t know how to dance a Mazurka the Irish way - I only know how to dance it in French style. I take it there will be some differences?

I love this mazurka!!!!!! Thanks for putting it up!!!
I will put the rose of raby up soon..

This is actually not by Gilles Chabenat. It is called “L’inconnu de Limoise” and is by Jean-François Heintzen, better known as “Maxou” Heintzen. There is a version of it, with lots of informative comments about the composer, the incident that inspired its composition, and the words written for it, on here at
thesession.org/tunes/6047
(though this version, in controversial 6/8 time, seems to catch the lazy swing of a mazurka better than the other transcriptions).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWKISP3IVzI is “L’inconnu de Limoise” and is definitely a different tune. The tune posted her is the one we learnt as “Des Escholiers de Saint-Genest”. I have been unable to find a definitive answer as to whether Gilles Chabenat composed it or arranged a traditional tune.

play video

i am afraid that the tune was not composed by Gilles chabenat but by “ maxou”

You can see him here the second from the left , with the boots playing with its friend..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f51k2j5oJDg

play video

I learned this tune under the title ‘Les ecoliers de St-Genest’ from a local gurdy player. It goes well with another 3/4 piece called ‘La Burette’. There are 3-part arrangements of both (in Am and Dm) in the tune library at www.rudemex.co.uk.

Just to clarify, this is Mazurka Des Écoliers De Saint Genest, aka Mazurka Giles Chabenat, performed by Warme Garnas.

I believe it was written by Giles. At least, it is credited to him, universally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDrs_27MZoc

play video