Over The Water To Charlie jig

I submitted this as #2 because there’s already a tune here called Over the Water to Charlie with a different melody. There are many tunes with this title but this is my favorite. It is yet another one of my barebones arrangements of a tune once played in the wilds of WV MD and PA USA. This is the way it is in my head today… tomorrow it could be different.

Like a lot of the stuff I post < Im not aware of any recordings of it and can’t seem to find a related tune so comments are welcomed.

When submitting a tune, please follow the instructions which specifically ask that you don’t include numbers in the tune title. It’s perfectly fine to have different tunes with the same name.

Sorry I missed that rule. My mistake. I just didnt want it to refer to recordings that werent accurate.

This isn’t the tune “Over The Water To Charlie” which the Bothy Band played, and which has presumably been entered previously. However, it’s a tune that crops up in the Southern English Morris repertoire - I’ve just forgotten its name.

Fine tune, but unfortunately I can’t find it in Lionel Bacon (one of the source books for Southern English Morris). Unless someone comes up with the information beforehand I’ll ask around next time I’m at my English session, which will be early next month.

Bill the Weaver’s: https://thesession.org/tunes/1693 Or, just a different version of the same tune?

Id say they are related. They could probably fit back to back .

A popular childrens song in Irish “Beidh ril againn, beidh ril againn beidh ril againn Dia Domhnaigh” was sung to this air.Seems related to the wedding song “Ta do mharagadh deanta” also.

Lazyhound - I may be mistaken about it being Morris. I think I heard it on a John Kirkpatrick recording somewhere. If it isn’t Morris, it sounds as if it ought to be!

There is a version collected in the 1930s from a northern West Virginia born fiddler named James Taylor by Samuel P Bayard. This version has styrongly influenced mine. Bayard gives a lot of history on the tune….

It was in the collection of Natahniel Gow ( “A Collection of Strathspey Reels” 1784-1809) With the title of “Madam Casey” or "Miss, Mrs. Mistress (Cassey.)

Also he cites Irish variants- “An Sioda Ata id’ Bhalluit, a Bhuachaill ?” (Is it silk thats in your bag my boy?) He says maybe it was anglo-cized to “ The Brown Wallet and The Silken Wallet.)… other Titles ”NO Surrender“ and ”The LAds of Tipperary."

He also says that it was used for some of the “Child” ballads and other songs… The Baffled Knight, Sir Hugh, Johnnie Cock ,The Earl of Errol.)

So the melody seems to have a historical presence in both Scotland, Ireland… and beyond.

Ive used Bayard’s notes alot and trust them MOST of the time.

“Ta do mharagadh deanta” seems to be related to “Royal Charlie” which is different tune altogether sometimes called “Over the Water to Charlie…” which is already here at the session…https://thesession.org/tunes/1888 “Behind the Bush…. is known to me as ”Over the Water to…" also. Royal Charlie is usuall Scottish, Behind the Bush Irish but essentially the same great tune… but not the one I posted.

Definitely a dance tune from the ‘Fieldtown’ tradition of Cotswold morris and it CAN be found in Bacon’s manual on page 160. his version of ‘Mrs Casey’ is identcal to mine but I got mine a long time before Bacon published his. The last four bars of the ‘B’ music is slightly different from that here.

‘Wha’ll be King but Charlie’ is not the same as ‘Over the Water to Charlie’ ‘Behind the Bush…’ is related to ‘Wha’ll be King’ not OTWtC.
‘Bill the Weaver’ seems to be a mix of 2 tunes ‘A’ music is from ‘Mrs Casey’ and the ‘B’ music from ‘Over the Water to C’ No wonder there’s confusion over tune titles.
Incidentally, there is a very nice version of ‘Over the Water’ to be found in the ‘Bledington’ morris tradition.

I dont think Im mixing them up… The title is a “floater” and I know 3-4 tunes associated with it.

Hetty, thanks for putting me right. I suspect that long before I got to p.160 of Bacon my eyes were starting to give out!
So “Mrs Casey” now appears to be an official name for this tune - there may be more than one, of course. That’s not unusual.

This seems to me to be a version of a tune i know as “News from Moidart” which i’d always thought was composed Neil Gow.

IN checking the dates of collections Iguess it is posssible that Gow couldve written it, but why would he publish it under a different title in the pre-mentioned collection, also it seems to be wide spread in tradition not only in Scotland, but in Ireland and England as well. Sort of a mysterious little tune.

You said “Neil” Gow… not Nathaniel… thats different!

I don’t know whether there has been a slight transcription error somewhere along the line but it seems to me that bar 7 of the second part plays better and more smoothly if it reads |G2E EDE| - i.e. the last note is an E and not a D.

In this case MaryH I do not think “floater” is valid. the two tunes are very distinct and my inclination is to create clarity. If tunes have titles I like to allocate them logically if possible. Sometimes tunes get labelled by mistake, which is what I feel has happened here.
When I learnt ‘Wha’ll be king but Charlie’ the parts were swapped, ‘A’ being ‘B’ and vica-versa.

My take on ‘Wha’ll be king but C’ is slightly different to this one, (just the usual few notes in various bars but enough to matter) I’ll post my ABC her https://thesession.org/tunes/1888
I learnt it as a Scottish set dance tune. “Behind the Bush” certainly feels more Irish.

These are all great Jacobite tunes Mary .Royal Charlie “welcome royal royal Charlie” etc. Keep them coming.

In the tradition that I “work” from, Over the Water to Charlie is the title for 3-4 different tunes… That is the traditional music of the Allegheny Mountains of Western MD, WV and SW Pennsylvania… alot of my tunes come from players born before the 1900’s… but it seems for you, the titles are specific. .. which is good.

Bar 7… I agree and I think thats how I normally play it. I just took it out of my head and at the time it sounded good to me the way the ABCs are.

Under what name has the Bothy Band tune of that name been entered on this database? Someone must have done it…

https://thesession.org/tunes/882

It’s in the Breathnach collection as a single jig, Billy O’Rourke

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htqH4vSkr9I

play video

As referred to in the comments above, here’s the “Mrs. Casey” setting of the tune as used by Cotswold Morris musicians in the village of Leafield (formally known as Field Town or Fieldtown) in Oxfordshire, England.

Variant:
https://thesession.org/tunes/15546 (Up The Southern Shore)